David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank colleagues for their comments and questions. This matter appears to be raised in almost the same terms by both amendments. As has been said, this was discussed extensively in the Seanad. I note the amendments are the same as the text of a Bill submitted by the national lottery to the Department in 2018 and similar to a Bill tabled by Deputy O'Callaghan at the same time.

We spoke to the Office of the Attorney General about this and it is in agreement with the position I set out in some detail in the other House. There is an issue whereby accepting the amendment might lead to further demands from the national lottery, perhaps seeking to prohibit the local lotteries that support sports clubs and community organisations. Many of our sports clubs and community organisations depend on lotteries. We could argue they are in direct competition with the national lottery. A similar argument to that made by the Deputies is that these lotteries for football, rugby, hurling and Tidy Towns also impact on the turnover of the national lottery. It could be argued they have an impact on sales. None of us could agree on doing anything to curtail this activity, which directly benefits local sports clubs and other organisations.

Deputy Chambers mentioned that the national lottery is now a private company. The essence of the amendment seems to be to enhance its position as a private company by seeking to end the possibility of licensed bookmakers, land based and remote, offering bets on the outcome of Irish national lottery draws as they might on any other probability outcomes. Deputy Fitzpatrick made this point. The Deputies' proposals would allow licensed land-based or online bookmakers to offer bets on any other lottery but not the Irish one. Should the Deputies' proposition be accepted, I foresee certain legal uncertainties and potential challenges from licensed bookmakers. I do not think it would achieve what is intended, which is possibly increased sales for the national lottery. For information, the turnover of the national lottery in 2015 was €670 million, in 2016 it was €750 million, in 2017 it was €800 million and in 2018 it was €805 million. There was a 20% increase over four years. This certainly does not suggest much impact since 2015 on the lottery operator arising from the licensing of bets.

The contribution of the national lottery to good causes increased each year. This is to be welcomed, although such contribution is surely critical to having a national lottery in the first place. The turnover is increasing every year and there is no convincing evidence that betting on lottery numbers undermines funding for good causes or that it threatens the profitability of the national lottery operator in the long term. As I said, it is now a private company.

In addition, there is no evidence that I am aware of that betting on lottery numbers leads to a loss of revenue to the Exchequer. Licensed remote bookmakers offering bets on lottery numbers and all licensed Irish betting shops must pay tax on every bet they take. They must pay the current necessary licence fee. Bookmaker shops also contribute to the Exchequer by, as has been said, providing many jobs in towns and villages throughout the country. The product offered in betting shops or online is a bet and not a ticket sale. I understand Irish bookmakers offer bets on one, two, three, four or five numbers being drawn. In terms of cost to customers, bookmakers accept bets of 5 cent and upwards while the national lottery minimum stake is €5 for two lines without the plus option.

Online operators normally offer bets on the outcome of the national lottery, EuroMillions and other lotteries, with players having to choose the corresponding numbers relating to those draws. I have not been provided with any information to suggest that the outcomes of the weekly national lottery draws are exempt from being bet on. Such is the position with football matches and races. I may bet on their outcomes without hindrance by the organisers of the events. I am aware of no argument to suggest the national lottery numbers are afforded some special form of legal or intellectual property protection. In any representations I have received on this matter, the national lottery operator has advanced no such arguments.

As I stated in the Seanad, I have no function in respect of the national lottery as such. Regulation of its licensing is a matter for the Minister for Finance under the National Lottery Act 2013. My Department's role concerning licensed bookmakers under the betting Acts is limited to the provision of certificates of fitness for applicants for bookmakers' licences, remote bookmakers licences and for remote betting intermediaries. The Revenue Commissioners issue licences after that. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform did not provide in the National Lottery Act for any prohibition on licensed bookmakers offering bets on the outcome of the national lottery draws on Wednesdays and Saturdays, nor did the Minister for Finance address this point during the preparation of the Betting (Amendment) Act 2015. To the best of my knowledge, there are no conditions or prohibitions imposed in the Betting Acts 1931 to 2015 in respect of the nature and extent of the bets that licensed bookmakers, land-based or remote, might offer. I am sorry for going on a bit but I feel we must ventilate this.

Deputy Jack Chambers asked about unclaimed winnings. While I agree with the sentiment he expressed, this is a matter for the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform to deal with it.