Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I am very interested in their responses. I will be brief.

As was stated, the importance of definitions of what constitutes an employee and a self-employed person has become clear. I wish to commend Senator Nash, who made a very good attempt to set those definitions.

I ask the witnesses to comment on what seems to be the inadequacy of the case-by-case approach. Although it is important that test cases are being taken, we have seen that all that is needed for a case to be dropped is for the person involved to pull back or a new form of employment to be found for him or her. The scope section and Revenue looking at this matter on a case-by-case basis does not deal with the sectoral issues. I ask the delegates to address the sectoral investigations which they consider should appropriately be undertaken. I note with interest the point made in one of the presentations regarding the extent to which the European Union and its institutions are interested in the failures of our system. There is pressure from a European level regarding having a definition for an employee.

I am shocked that a person could be a director of a company and not aware of its other directors. It is not just a question of flouting company law, as pointed out by Deputy O'Dea. It seems to be an extraordinarily unusual situation. Mr. Cullen mentioned that in the case of the contractor models to which he referred, the accountant is also a director and the company has a recommended list of acceptable accountants. While I acknowledge that Mr. Cullen may not be privy to the interior workings of each company or pseudo-company, could it be the case that an accountant director would be in a completely different and privileged position compared with the other directors as he or she may be aware of them and is in a position whereby he or she benefits from a recommendation by the company? That is an issue of potential concern in terms of from where the determinations come.

On safety implications, it is very alarming for anybody who flies to hear of safety concerns being flouted in this way. Does it create any ambiguity in terms of liabilities? If pilots are working for what are, effectively, pseudo-companies which are separate from the owner of the aeroplane, it seems to create a potentially ambiguous or dangerous situation which would be of significant concern to the wider public.

I wish to congratulate Mr. Fitzgerald and his colleagues from Unite on seeking to support the unionisation of sectors which have been very much neglected. I spent three years working as an English language teacher before returning to college. At the time, employment in the sector was insecure, but that insecurity now seems to have been systematised. Although it is not always the case for those engaged in English language teaching, archaeology or project work, there are mechanisms whereby companies can offer quality short-term or part-time employment. Although it may not be permanent employment, it allow companies to treat people as employees and recognise their rights pro rata and so forth. It came across clearly from the testimony of Mr. Cullen and others that career development may be stymied in some cases such that people cannot get to the next rung on the ladder.

On procurement, I brought forward legislation pressing for a price and quality approach to procurement, rather than a price-only approach. There are certain tools which may be used, such as the exclusion of those who breach laws. On quality criteria, the party seeking a contractor should seek to be satisfied that the tendering company has permanent employees who will have a consistency of delivery. That quality measure is of particular importance in State procurement.

The State is giving other benefits to companies which are flouting these laws, as was mentioned, such as recognition on the interim list of education providers and, presumably, in the trade missions undertaken by the State. Have some of the companies employing these poor practices had the opportunity to participate in or benefit from Irish trade missions? This is an area of expansion and it is crucial that it be an area of quality employment.