Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

That is a contract. The services are being provided on a contractual basis. I agree, as that is my understanding as well.

To what degree does that entail the Department of Health or the HSE providing support for pensions or for other services? In my view if one has a contract to provide a service, it entails everything. One brings one's baggage to the contract and one provides everything oneself. I provide everything myself if I am a contractor, in the same way as a builder or somebody else. To what degree have the witnesses found that it was necessary to call on the RehabCare voluntary fundraising activities, the HSE or the Department of Health to assist in such issues as pension provisions for the future?

That is another question.

To what extent has consideration been given to the multiplicity of organisations that appear to be engaged in the delivery of vital and sensitive services in the same marketplace, in competition in some circumstances, particularly with regard to voluntary fundraising? How do voluntary bodies fit in there? Would some degree of amalgamation might be beneficial? For example, the HSE - and the health boards in the past - has certainly attempted to provide services under respective headings from within its own resources. The other issue is the voluntary sector, which consists of many and various compartments these days. I respect the voluntary sector for what it does. It does a great deal of work. The religious parts of that have been referred to on numerous occasions. The country was quite happy to accept the services provided by the voluntary sector in years gone by. We cannot state that we do not want an organisation because it represents some religious group but that we want the services it provides. We are being hypocritical in how we look at some of those issues.

How do voluntary and non-profit bodies see themselves fitting into the fabric of services provided by the HSE or the Department of Health? Our guests had a meeting with Laura Magahy. How long did the meeting last and was it satisfactory? Did Ms Magahy provide any indication of future prospects around interaction? Will there be a further meeting? The cost of providing health-related services are growing all the time and will continue to do so. Even in the context of the very extensive budget of the Department of Health, €3 billion is a great deal of money. The extension of the cost of the services is likely to continue based on information to date. What is the likely outcome in terms of the necessary increase in taxation to fund it? That is the only way it can be funded. The Minister does not stick his hand into a back pocket to find money. He does not refuse to find money either. He wants to help out and the Department of Health wants to help for obvious reasons, including political ones. There are all kinds of reasons. The creation of the belief that in some way the Minister is opposed to providing the necessary services is completely wrong. Everybody has to look at how they present the picture in that context. If we do not, we are heading back to 2008. If we want to go back to 2008 in respect of the national finances, it might be a learning process. It might be a hard way to learn, but also necessary. Maybe the country has to go broke again in order to illustrate fully the seriousness of the situation in which we find ourselves.

I have restricted my submissions so far and I intend to come back in. I have a final question for now. Has any evaluation been made of the extent of the increase in income tax paid by the public on a weekly or monthly basis? It would be helpful if we were given some indication of where we might have to go in future. If we do not pay for the services, we lose them. If we do not provide the funding through taxation - and it does not come from anywhere else - the services will go too. We are caught in a cleft stick. I have had dealings with all of the voluntary organisations represented here and many of their subsidiaries as well.