Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

With the retrospective governance that we are very fond of in here - and I mean in general and not just in the context of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs - my interpretation of what Dr. Lynch has said is that the rules then allowed for the fraud or the over-claims. The rules, as set out by Dr. Lynch's Department and transferred to Pobal, allowed for this to happen. The Department changed the rules two years ago and the role of Pobal changed. Reference was made to the recouping of €937,000 in the year 2017-2018 and €4.7 million in the year 2018-2019, which, nicely, is five times the amount from the previous year and seems to be a worrying trajectory in fairness but maybe it is not going to continue to €25 million next year. Hopefully, we are not going there. Dr. Lynch has just said the incidence of fraud was very low, but low in what terms? A sum of €4.7 million is not low. The Department has been able to recoup €4.7 million from over-claims since the rules were changed. Will Dr. Lynch explain how that figure has increased by five in a 12 month period? Has the Department just become better at catching people or at claiming back? Who is guilty? Was everybody at it? Was it the case that large providers copped on to the lack of governance and the availability of money? Was it the CCS groups? Who was doing it without knowing? It is my view that small childcare providers would have known that if they did not have the child in front of them they could not get the payment for the child.