Dr. Fergal Lynch:

We must base any amount potentially lost to the Exchequer on the rules. The rules of the scheme were based on registrations and enrolments in earlier years. This is an important point. When we started examining whether there a case for recouping money, as recently as 2015 and 2016, we got legal advice on several cases. The advice was that there was no such case because the rules were not sufficiently clear on attendance requirements. These payments could not be recouped. I can give the Deputy very specific figures on what Pobal has sought to recoup over the last few years. In 2017 and 2018 Pobal's compliance visits produced an estimate of approximately €937,000. There are caveats here because of the type of data involved. In the current year, 2018 and 2019, Pobal has identified potential excess claims of €4.7 million. I stress the word "potential".

In each of these cases, the money is not lost to the Exchequer. It is either recouped through subsequent reductions or required to be submitted before the over-claim payment is made. In some instances, providers were entitled to claim under a different scheme, that is, the community childcare subvention private, CCSP, scheme as opposed to the community childcare subvention, CCS, scheme, so it would not be payable. The amounts identified in more recent years were recoupable or were not overpaid in the first instance.