Ms Maeve McElwee:

I will make a couple of quick points on the issues that have been discussed. Organisations with defined benefit pension schemes were employers of choice. They have put in place significant benefit schemes. I will pick up on the Deputy's use of the word "opts", as he should actually have used its past tense. They opted for these schemes many years ago at a time when we were in a different situation. We could not foresee the future and the challenges being faced now. Many companies have no new entrants into their schemes. They are in a negotiated situation. It is a very sensitive employer relations issue. Where a company made the decision many years ago to be that employer of choice and put in place the best benefits that it could in good faith, it is in every circumstance where feasible and possible going to negotiate with its trustees and undertake a significant programme of negotiation with its staff in respect of the changes, amendments or closure that must come about based on the financial situation of the pension scheme as it stands.

We must recognise that the world of work changes all of the time. It is a private contract entered into freely and at a cost to the employer. However, all contracts change over time. In every other aspect of employment contracts, changes come about. They need to be open to negotiation relative to the position of an organisation at any time. We see that as it comes through.

I appreciate the comments about the need to consider hard cases, but the question is how will they be determined and how will any organisation entering into these types of discussion be in a position to determine in advance that they would be considered a hard case and, consequently, given that opportunity to negotiate. The challenges of trying to differentiate between one and the other are significant for businesses.

Mr. Donohoe referred to younger members. The Chairman mentioned that IBEC was present to represent employers, which is the case. In my direct engagement with organisations' human resources directors, however, the issue of internal equity between different cohorts of staff arises constantly. They feel, and we feel in advising them, a considerable responsibility for managing some of the challenges posed by the differences in the terms and conditions applicable for people with significant DB and contribution pensions and newer staff who have not been able to access schemes that are now closed. Employers are concerned for their staff in this regard. In particular, they are concerned about younger and newer employees being at a disadvantage and the challenges it presents to good, stable and harmonious industrial relations within their businesses.