Mr. Andy Pike:

Deputy Naughton's observation that school secretaries and caretakers being hard to mobilise is entirely right. Were this happening in a local authority, placards would be dusted off. There would be a direct response. The word "ballot" would be mentioned and several other words familiar to those involved in the industrial relations world. However, where we have a situation involving a part-time secretary in a school and it is the school's issue alone in terms of the conditions of service under which he or she is employed, Fórsa has decided to look under every other stone before we look at the more traditional ways in which workers express dissatisfaction. Hence, the start of the campaign and the local meetings. We will look for any option we can find to try to get an agreement over the line that is satisfactory to members. However, where we dealt with even bigger groups in education such as clerical, administrative and professional staff in institutes of technology recently, industrial action took place to achieve an agreement. It was done quickly and it produced a result. We are not convinced that at this point in time the same approach would be appropriate for school secretaries and caretakers so we will continue with the campaign as is but it is true that it is more difficult to mobilise a campaign effectively where the members are spread out in small numbers across the country rather than being concentrated in one place.

On Senator Byrne's query about the new announcement of additional recruitment, we were pleased. To confirm our view, all those staff would be on ETB conditions of service so this problem would not arise. That is great but again it reinforces the current two-tier system. I have no doubt we will meet the Department of Education and Skills on this and the State industrial relations machinery is available to assist if needs be.

Deputy O'Sullivan asked what is being asked of the committee. We are not asking the committee to delve too much into the particular pay scale or the costings but we ask the committee to consider endorsing public service status for non-teaching staff and to say that is an objective worth striving for and achieving as it would benefit the entire school community.

On the costings Ms Carton set out, certainly in terms of pension costings - I will not say anything this side of an actuarial report which I do not have - there are many issues to be negotiated between the parties related to moving from non-public service status to public service status. At this stage, what Fórsa is looking for and what our members want is as many endorsements of the principle that they should be public servants as we can obtain.

I will make a final comment on the Chairman's question on oversight of board of management staff. Many staff employed by boards of management schools are subject to professional frameworks, policies and procedures but for school secretaries and caretakers it is very ad hoc; they do not work within the same framework. That is particularly worrying when considering audit and financial management issues. Even in terms of dealing with complex procedures such as complaints of various descriptions and flavours, some of that work is statutory but all of it is quite complex. School secretaries are employed by boards of management on local conditions. I worry that they are a little vulnerable. If one is a public servant, one knows where one stands. One has obligations but one knows one will be treated fairly.