Dr. David Duffy:

I am grateful for the comments from the Chairman and members about the vital role caretakers, secretaries and cleaners play in a school. The standard line is that if anyone wants to know what is happening in a school beyond the principal and the deputy principal, the people who know everything that happens are the caretaker, the secretary and the cleaner. As Senator Gallagher rightly said, they are a vital part of the team and a vital role is played by all of the non-teaching staff in a school.

While the slight alleviation we had in recent days is welcome and a step in the right direction, it is only a small step and it only affects some schools. If there was an office building or factory with 1,000 staff in the building every day, I strongly suspect it would not be relying on one cleaner, one caretaker and one secretary, but that is exactly what schools of 1,000 were relying on until a few days ago. An employer with 1,000 staff in an office building or factory would not allow that to happen.

It is extremely important that we carry out an audit, in particular so we have the data. I welcome the data my colleague has given for 2009, which at least gives us some baseline. We need to factor in that the rise in student numbers in the post-primary sector in particular in the past eight years, and the expected rise over the next six years, is truly enormous. We are talking about 100,000 additional students.

As well as carrying out the audit, we need to be looking beyond restoration to where we were before because student numbers will be up by 100,000 in a few years. We need to be looking for an increase. In reference to the 2009 audit, which was referred to by my colleague from the Department of Education and Skills, I think Ms Carton was referring to 4,000 whole-time equivalent staff. That is welcome but we need to put it in the context of 4,000 schools. If I am picking it up correctly, and I hope my colleague from the Department will tell me if I am not, we are talking about the equivalent of one person per school between caretaking, cleaning and secretarial staff. That is for the time prior to the recession. My fear is that it is significantly less now.