Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 4 April 2019

Public Accounts Committee

2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality

9:00 am

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

That is great. I will get to the content of the other meeting in a moment or two. The question on the mess committee stands and I hope Mr. O'Driscoll will get back to us on it.

The email that I referred to, which was sent to governors on 28 January, stated that mess committee staff were advised to engage professional financial advice regarding the tax status of committees and the financial books that were to be kept. On the question of independence, it seems to be a Pontius Pilate move in that we seem to be taking control of an awful lot of things in terms of expenditure, light, heat and various other things. I am totally for the appropriate availability of food, meals and everything in the Prison Service but governors are on the committee so I do not see the level of independence or any separation. The line suggests the Prison Service is oblivious to tax status and the financial books.

In Mr. O'Driscoll's response to me, which he said was very detailed, he sent a list of balances when we had asked for audited accounts. He pointed out that the balances may not all be profit but he did not answer the question of who audits or when it is audited and we are still oblivious to that. He did, however, send us the procedure but nobody doubts that procedures are in place for how cash could be managed. I respectfully suggest that it is the Department which has not tested some of the issues I brought up at the last meeting. The Department has taken people's word for things but that may not be enough. I ask Mr. O'Driscoll to note that as well.

The email goes on to ask governors if they are aware of any misuse of Prison Service materials. We would love to think everybody was above reproach but these questions are arising. I am not saying governors are involved but they could be and we do not know. If there are practices that are wrong, what do we expect governors to say other than that there is nothing to see here? Would the Department consider asking the Comptroller and Auditor General, or an appropriate arms-length body such as the Department's own internal audit unit, which the procedure states can do spot checks, to carry out a forensic audit of all mess committees going back to their establishment, including interviews with all relevant personnel? I would prefer the Comptroller and Auditor General to do it. Mr. O'Driscoll said he is not answering and I understand why but I ask him to take it on board.

Is the Department or is the Irish Prison Service aware of an alleged amount, in the region of €20,000 or €25,000, being taken from the tuck shop or tuck shop account in a Dublin prison to fund a trip for a group to a sporting-related event in the United States between 2010 and 2013? It is a serious allegation which has come up umpteen times. Given the existence of such allegations, would the Department ask the Comptroller and Auditor General or another appropriate arms-length body to carry out a forensic audit of all tuck shops over the past ten years, including holding interviews with all relevant personnel?

Mr. O'Driscoll mentioned vehicles.

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