Ms Jean Winters:

Yes, and I absolutely accept that. Given the nature of the industry, it explains to a large extent why there would be larger numbers of self-employed, either with employees or without, because it is an industry which is based on contracting and sub-contracting.

Senator Nash and Deputy O'Dea, in particular, stated here today that they know of people who have been forced into self-employment. That is clearly wrong and we categorically state that. We support the legitimate contractor and in the case of somebody who has been forced into self-employment it is clearly wrong. The legitimate contractor loses out if this other contractor has a competitive advantage. That sort of practice is detrimental to the industry.

Deputy Bríd Smith referred to the campaign in which the Revenue Commissioners were involved in 2017 when more than €60 million was collected. As Mr. O'Connell said, to us it demonstrates that there are mechanisms in place to ensure compliance with all regulations, guidelines and legislation and we would like to see even more of that. We are in favour of ensuring that all workers are aware of the guidelines and codes of practice in place and we want inspection and enforcement, and more of it. As Mr. O'Connell noted, we have been in contact with the Workplace Relations Commission to discuss greater measures to ensure compliance with the sectoral employment order in the construction industry. It was the CIF which applied for that order. It sets legally binding rates of pay, pensions and sick pay for workers in the industry. The CIF applied to the Labour Court in 2016, asking it to conduct an examination of the industry with a view to introducing a sectoral employment order. At that time, we asked the construction workers unions to come along with us and make a joint application. They decided for their own reasons not to do that, so we went alone. A sectoral employment order is in place and we are very much in favour of ensuring that it is complied with and we seek greater measures to ensure compliance.

Deputy Joan Collins spoke of the principal contractor and its responsibilities. If one looks at the public sector contract currently in place, clause 5 sets out the contractor's obligations to ensure that all workers on site receive all their entitlements under registered employment agreements, sectoral employment orders and various other employment protection legislation.

It also sets out that all workers on site have a right to be a member of a trade union if they so wish and that if a trade union has concerns about non-compliance, a union official may contact a designated member of the contractor's management team to discuss those concerns with a view to putting the situation right. Certain obligations are already in place and we believe they should be complied with and enforced. I am not saying that there is absolutely no incidence of bogus self-employment in the construction industry as that would be a foolish statement to make. The mechanisms are in place to allow those with the powers to go out and inspect any incidents to so do. As Deputy Bríd Smith stated, the Revenue campaign in 2017 bears that out. We are all in favour of that.

Deputy Joan Collins or Deputy Bríd Smith referred to the Connect trade union and its report. We work quite closely with Connect. We work with it on the electrical national joint industrial council which will meet on Monday. We will meet representatives of Connect tomorrow on the mechanical sector. We work quite closely with it. If there are issues that we need to discuss, of course, we will do that. Our position is that if there are issues - and I accept that there are - we need to tackle them. We believe the mechanisms are in place to tackle all issues of bogus self-employment and that they should be used. If we need more inspectors on the ground, that should be facilitated. There should be more awareness among workers generally of their entitlements and the work of the scope section of the Department. The measures are there and should be used. If they need to be enhanced, that is the way this issue can be tackled.