Ms Maeve McElwee:

I will try to address the questions in the order in which they were asked. The first point made by Deputy O'Dea was around the counter-narrative that can emerge and the fact that potentially it is seen as trying to do down individuals within this particular situation. IBEC understands that this is certainly not the intention in any way but it does highlight the complexity of the situation. Our challenge is to highlight the complexity of trying to regulate in the framework we are examining here. Our view is very much that we do have a system and a structure in place that has worked. It is clear from the questions raised this morning that many of the challenges arising are in regard to utilisation of the framework. We are not necessarily seeing any specific instance in which the framework itself has not delivered the outcome we would have expected.

In regard to Deputy O'Dea's point that there are a number of individuals of whom he is aware, we believe he should encourage those people to take their action through the WRC, where the cases can be determined. There is legislation in place. We put great trust in the independence of the WRC. It adjudicates on all of our employment rights and it has significant wealth of experience across all industrial relations matters. Its inspection services are exemplary. In many ways, we already have a really significant structure in place to deal with those issues. The WRC has significantly deal with cases. We are not aware of any major number of cases where those rights have not been addressed or have been the subject of significant appeal.

In response to the comments of Senator Nash, we are talking here about the ability of people to engage with the protections that exist. We need to be careful with our use of language and words such as "phenomena". We do not deny that issues are arising. In fact, we are very aware that there are compliance issues which is why we are very supportive of the Minister's approach in terms of investigation and ensuring compliance. We are not necessarily saying that we are satisfied with how the current regime operates. We acknowledge that there is a problem but it is not necessarily connected to how the regime operates; rather, the problem lies with the utilisation of the regime. There is adequate legislation in place that can address many of the concerns. The issue is with managing the enforcement of the legislation in a consistent way. We must encourage the enforcement of the legislation. We should have confidence in the systems. We have confidence in legislation's ability to deal with all other areas of employment rights and this area should not pose any more of a challenge. Employees, contractors or individuals who feel they have an issue they wish to raise should be able to do so.

Deputy Bríd Smith raised the issue of data and clearly there are lots of challenges in this area. That said, the ESRI and the Departments of Finance and Employment Affairs and Social Protection have produced significant volumes of data on this area. These are independent bodies with a significant interest in determining the right data in respect of independent contractors. While we recognise that there are challenges in certain sectors, we are talking about only 2% across the board. When we make regulation, we always need to be cognisant of the fact that it will impact the entirety of labour market and we need to manage any unintended consequences, especially when we have a regime in place. We would accept the data put forward by ICTU on a previous occasion at this committee. That showed that the 2017 initiative addressed some of the concerns that are arising and it converted 500 people from self-employed status to employed. In many ways, that upholds what we are trying to share with the committee, which is our belief that we have a strong regime. When we address issues through the compliance framework, we find that it works very well. The supports that underpin that compliance are important. They provide the opportunity to deliver results without increasing the complexity of our employment legislation or producing any unintended consequences by layering more legislation on top. Everybody has anecdotal stories but we cannot rely on them. We must rely on the data and the hard figures and it is important that we do so throughout the entirety of the process. Just because there has been an increase in the number of self-employed people in our economy does not necessarily mean we have increased bogus or false self-employment across the board. Naturally, our economy changes, develops and grows. We were very keen to ensure-----