Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour) | Oireachtas source

It certainly had enough documentation to have a discussion with Mr. Watt's Department at the time. We have seen all the documentation, the letters that came through the board and the board's minutes. The Department of Health officials certainly had enough to have a discussion with Mr. Watt's Department. The fact that there was no meeting is bewildering to me. I do not find the answer satisfactory.

The Estimates process is bewildering. There were MAC meetings taking place. An official was present but nobody said anything. I refer to the Revised Estimates, the lack of capacity even to have a meeting between the two Departments and the awareness between 9 November and 19 November.

I want to ask Mr. Watt about circular 12/2010, which is the protocol for civil servants nominated to the boards of non-commercial State bodies. We do not need to go through the steps outlined. It basically concerns how State bodies should perform. The circular is quite clear about what any State official serving on a board has to do as regards making a Minister aware of matters. Footnote 1 states the relevant Minister is the Minister under whose aegis the body falls. The circular states:

Occasions when information must be conveyed directly to the relevant Minister without delay

The Minister must be notified without delay where:i There are serious weaknesses in controls that have not been addressed despite being drawn to the attention of the board or the Chairperson;

ii There is a significant strategic or reputational risk to CIB that is not being addressed;

We can hardly say now there have not been reputational issues relating to the national children's hospital. Given that we now know there was massive over-expenditure in the summer of 2018 and that we have seen the board's minutes, would it not have been reasonable, bearing in mind that Mr. Watt is the person who governs the area covered by the circular, for the person on the board to go directly to the Minister about the over-expenditure?

Is Mr. Watt not concerned that, given the way the circular has been interpreted in this instance, issues could arise over other State boards and how civil servants or State employees adhere to this circular on those boards?