Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 21 February 2019

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement

Impact of Brexit on the Good Friday Agreement: Discussion (Resumed)

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

There are a lot of questions there. I will try to be accurate in the answers. Deputy Breathnach referred to the impact of a no-deal Brexit. A no-deal Brexit will put huge pressure on the economies of Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and Britain as well as on the economies of other member states. No one should pretend we can have a contingency plan which is comprehensive enough to manage a no-deal Brexit easily. That is nonsense. It cannot. It will have an impact on our economic growth and on jobs which would otherwise have been created. We will still be creating jobs, but not as many. It will mean we have to operate on the basis of a deficit for another year or two rather than to have a surplus. Undoubtedly, we will have to borrow to fund and protect vulnerable sectors. I take beef and agrifood as an example of an area in which we have received confusing messages over the last number of weeks on the imposition of tariffs under the World Trade Organization rules that could be triggered in the context of a no-deal Brexit. Whether one is a farmer in Northern Ireland or down here, the impact is of great significance. Imagine the consequences for milk produced in Northern Ireland, 40% of which is actually processed south of the Border, if tariffs of somewhere above 40% were imposed. This would mean a loss for everyone. It would be crazy and we cannot allow it to happen. I do not believe it will happen, by the way, but we do not control all of the levers.

We need to plan for that worst-case scenario on a just-in-case basis and we are. Tomorrow morning at 9 a.m., we will publish a very lengthy Bill with 15 Parts dealing with, inter alia, cross-Border healthcare arrangements. To reassure the members, I note that even in a no-deal, worst-case scenario, we will have emergency legislation in place to ensure that cross-Border healthcare provision can continue. Children from Belfast will be able to come to Dublin for specialist paediatric care while people in Donegal will be able to cross the Border to Altnagelvin Hospital for treatment. Myriad health services being provided on a cross-Border basis will be able to continue. We are doing the same to legislate to protect an all-island electricity market and introducing provisions to support students who have had special privileges to date between the UK and Ireland. I benefitted from them at university in England for a while. The British taxpayer paid for some of my third level costs just as many British people are enrolled in Irish universities at the moment. Without a legislative basis, that arrangement cannot continue. People would be treated as coming from a third country and subject to the fee structure applying to foreign students. We could not continue to provide grant aid through SUSI to Irish students studying in British universities and other third level institutions if we did not provide for it in legislation. I refer to social welfare. There are thousands of British people in Ireland who receive a pension from the UK on a weekly basis and there are many Irish people living in the UK who receive pensions from here. Again, we need a legislative basis to ensure that can continue. Otherwise, at 11 a.m. on 29 March, which is the time Britain will formally leave the European Union, a lot of people could be very adversely impacted very quickly.

There is a whole series of other areas to address, including transport.

Believe it or not - I never thought I would have to say this - we must now put primary legislation in place to facilitate a train travelling from Dublin to Belfast because that train will be travelling out of the European Union and into a third country. There will essentially need to be a legal basis for the recognition of a driver's qualifications, safety certifications and so on. The same goes for buses. Even when it comes to driving between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, I am sure some of the members have heard about the potential need to carry proof of insurance in the other jurisdiction. These are things we never thought we would have to deal with - again - but they are the kinds of practical things Brexit throws up.

There will be 15 Parts to the Bill, and then we will introduce, I think, about 28 secondary pieces of legislation through what are called statutory instruments in various areas, including mutual recognition of driver licences and so on. To reassure the committee on one level, we are preparing in every way we can for a no-deal Brexit, as is the EU collectively, because there are many things we cannot do ourselves and which are EU competences, whether that be in aviation, financial services or whatever else. That said, I think the impact of a no-deal Brexit would be very dramatic indeed and I do not believe people will allow it to happen because of those consequences. I certainly hope I am right about that.

Regarding the extension of Article 50, Deputy Breathnach asked me whether I believe a deal could be done that could be ratified in Westminster before the end of March. Yes, I do. Are we there yet? No, we are not, but work is ongoing to try to find a way of doing that. The parameters within which we and the EU operate are pretty clear. We are not reopening the withdrawal agreement. It is already a very fine balance of compromises on both sides. If it is reopened and changed, that will have knock-on effects and others will look to open other areas, whether that is Spain seeking to open something relating to Gibraltar or whatever else. That said, we must try to find a way of providing the reassurance that many in the British Parliament, in Westminster, are seeking before they can ratify this deal. We are trying to do this in a way that does not undermine the effectiveness of a guaranteed insurance mechanism to reassure people that they will never face the reintroduction of physical border infrastructure between the two jurisdictions on this island. That is the challenge. We are happy to reinforce the point that no one wants the backstop ever to be used. I hope we will be able to avoid it through a comprehensive future relationship agreement. If it is ever used, we want it to be temporary. However, we cannot agree to time limits or unilateral exit clauses because if one cannot answer convincingly the question what will happen after that period, then it is not a backstop at all. Alternative arrangements may well emerge. We need to have an open mind on that. If a review mechanism is triggered within the backstop, we must have an open mind to replacing the backstop with alternative mechanisms. This is already catered for in the Irish protocol of the withdrawal agreement and in the relationship declaration on the framework for the future. The test here, however, is that the alternative arrangements must do the same job. Therefore, I would say to people who say we must have a time limit or a unilateral exit clause and that there are alternative arrangements that can prevent border infrastructure, "Let us see them." I have been involved in a process that has tested many of these alternative theories and, quite frankly, they have not stood up to scrutiny. There are those who believe there are alternative mechanisms. In the future they can be tested. If they work, perhaps they can be agreed as the basis of replacing a backstop. They must do the job, however. That is the key issue here, and there is absolute solidarity across the European Union on this. We cannot have, as an unintended consequence of Brexit, the re-emergence of physical border infrastructure, which in my view would have a desperately corrosive impact on relationships between communities, particularly in Border counties, and a very detrimental impact on an all-island economy which in many ways has reinforced the normality that so many of us have got used to over the past 20 years.

How do we ensure no diminution in rights? I have lots of notes on this but do not worry, I will not read them all out. Essentially, anyone born in Northern Ireland has a right to be an Irish citizen or a British citizen or both under the Good Friday Agreement. That is the beauty of the agreement. If one is an Irish citizen, one is an EU citizen. It is simple as that. As soon as one travels into the EU, one gets all the rights of an EU citizen - to study, to work, to move around and so on - which is why, in my view, many people will want those entitlements through Irish citizenship. This is one of the reasons so many people are applying for Irish passports at present. In the future, they may want them for practical reasons rather than reasons of identity. What is more challenging, then, is how we ensure no diminution in rights for people while living in Northern Ireland. In many ways residency rights and citizenship rights are different. There are many EU citizens living outside the EU who hold onto their EU citizenship rights and come back into the EU. This does not necessarily mean they can force the Government of a state outside of the EU to implement EU legislation in order to implement their rights, and this is where this gets tricky. My understanding of the way in which this works is that the withdrawal agreement effectively becomes an international treaty with legal effect and, therefore, people will be able to go to the UK courts to ensure that their rights are in no way undermined and that there would be no diminution in their rights as a result of Britain leaving the European Union. The British courts system would have to bear this in mind in the decisions it makes, but it will be up to the UK to put systems in place that can follow through on the commitments to which it has signed up in the withdrawal agreement. I know there is a lot of focus on the backstop, but there are many other really important things in the Irish protocol of the withdrawal agreement relating to rights, the common travel area, CTA, and so many other areas that are hugely valuable for everyone, whether one considers oneself British or Irish in Northern Ireland.

I have met a number of North-South bodies, and in many ways some of them are kind of in limbo because they are not getting a clear direction from the North-South Ministerial Council and they are essentially continuing to operate as they did. However, it is very hard to give new political direction or to implement new political thinking because we do not have the North-South bodies functioning as they should in terms of the political end of that infrastructure because of the absence of a functioning Assembly and an Executive.

Mr. Hazzard raised one main issue, that is, the European elections. We have had a discussion on this in Cabinet. I raised it with Cabinet because we are trying to get the balance right here. There is no example of a constituency outside of the European Union voting for and electing MEPs. By the way, I am one of the advocates, as is the Taoiseach, of the extension of voting rights for Presidential elections to everyone in Northern Ireland and to all Irish citizens all over the world. We will hold a referendum on this on 25 October which I hope everyone in this room will support. There is a practical issue here around the idea that an election in Northern Ireland could be held after Brexit if Northern Ireland is outside of the European Union. Who would hold the election? Who would manage it? In the absence of devolved government, would the election be run effectively by the British Government to elect MEPs? Who would vote? Would it just be Irish citizens and EU citizens or would British passport-holders in Northern Ireland be able to vote as well? There is a practical reality here.

One of the ways we could potentially do what Mr. Hazzard would like to do - to have some representation in the European Parliament, particularly in the context of the backstop being triggered, if it were ever to be - where there would be regulatory alignment with the rules and regulations of the European Union in Northern Ireland and therefore an understanding of them if they were to be changed, is through my proposal for observer status in the European Parliament. An accession state that wishes to join the European Union has observer status in the European Parliament in the year before it joins. It does not vote, but its representatives are present for all debates and can contribute to them. I wonder if it would be possible to have something similar where perhaps there could be two observers from each of the communities in Northern Ireland, certainly in a case where the backstop was to be triggered. However, how that could be facilitated is something that would need to be tested legally. It would also have to be facilitated by the European Commission and the European Parliament and that would not be straightforward. I assure Mr. Hazzard that we have talked about the issue. It is not as if we are ignoring it for party political reasons. We are not, but there are practical considerations that pose the questions I have raised.

Senator Feighan asked how we could get the Northern Ireland institutions up and running again. Some people in this room will have received feedback from the meeting held last Friday. It was a difficult enough meeting. I believe Sinn Féin, in particular, found it frustrating and did not believe it was a serious process, but it was a serious effort by the two Governments to get people around a table to have a serious conversation. It was not the start of a new process and was not meant to be, but it was the first time in a year that all of the party leaders had sat around a table and had had a discussion, even if it was somewhat tense, on the parameters within which we needed to work to get a system of devolved government working again. To be honest, I believe the two Governments need to do more together. We must look at how they can do some of the political heavy lifting to help the parties to find the basis of an agreement. From Sinn Féin's perspective, the rights agenda is very important. The SDLP and the Alliance Party also had sensible suggestions to make, as did the UUP and the DUP. It was an honest discussion, at the end of which we said the two Governments needed to talk to each other and the party leaders to find a way to put a basis in place which would be taken seriously by all parties to make another attempt at finding an accommodation for each other in a way that would allow the institutions to be re-established. We cannot afford to have a half-baked proposal and fail again. As the political capital in Northern Ireland is running thin and people are losing faith, we must be careful. Whatever we do next must have a good chance of succeeding. I am conscious of this in the conversations I am having with my counterparts in the British Government.

We are increasing PEACE programme funding and will continue to increase it. I am glad that the appetite in the European Union for continuing to support the programme will be strong through to the end of 2020 and beyond. The indications are that the British Government would also like to contribute to it, as we hope and expect.

I do not wish to get into the question of a Border poll because I am not sure it would help. People have different perspectives which I respect. I hope they also respect my perspective. We are trying to get a deal that will protect this island, North and South, from the potentially extraordinarily damaging impact of Brexit. It is difficult and many people feel threatened by it. Introducing a conversation on the demand for a Border poll at this time has an even more intense polarising effect on communities, but that is not to say it is not a legitimate aspiration. Of course, it is. People in Northern Ireland should be able to talk about having a nationalist aspiration, just as they should be allowed to talk about having a unionist one. That is what the Good Friday Agreement should facilitate. However, there is an issue in looking at the multiple challenges we face and trying to navigate a way through them. We only have 36 days left.

To respond to Deputy Breathnach's question about an extension of Article 50, Ireland will not be an obstacle to its extension if there is a sincere request from the British Government. However, if the European Union is to agree to it, there will have to be a plan to go with it. It cannot just be a case of seeking another six or 12 months. There would have to be a convincing plan, whereby the British Government could state what it would do if it was given another six months and how it would get the deal across the line if given more time. If the request was sincere and there was proper thought behind it, it could happen, but the Prime Minister has made it clear that she is not seeking an extension of Article 50, certainly not at present. She has to manage politics at Westminster, but that is the job of the British Government. What we must do is contribute to the EU side of the discussion. We must ensure we are informed, consistent and respectful of the United Kingdom and at the same time not make decisions that will fundamentally undermine core positions that were settled in the withdrawal agreement and which should not be undermined now in any attempt at compromise.

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