John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Before giving the witnesses an opportunity to respond, I note that a number of people have spoken about how to make it more difficult for employers to get away with this, including with greater fines. I have a concern in this regard, as the Department is unearthing a relatively small number of cases. The witnesses have specifically spoken about the WRC and Labour Court replacing the scope section and we should have a look at that. I specifically refer to the following numbers. In 2017, the scope section made over 1,000 determinations; the exact number was 1,097 decisions. Of those, 138 resulted in people being determined as class A. The Department's wording was that 35 could be described as "disputed" employment or self-employment cases. The rate of appeals in any given year is 5% to 10% and approximately 20% are overturned. The figures for what was determined as class A by the scope section were relatively small.

I refer to the evidence given at the committee by the Department relating to inspection work etc. The representatives stated that the Department, in conjunction with the Revenue Commissioners, did a number of inspections in the construction and other sectors in the west in the second half of May 2018. They indicated that the focus was on establishing correct insurability class and challenging any cases where dubious self-employment subcontracting was suspected. Leaflets outlining the false self-employment campaign were issued to the main contractors and others as considered appropriate. The joint initiative special investigation unit inspections were undertaken in Galway city on 10 May on three substantial sites. A total of 163 people were interviewed; ten of these workers were identified as self-employment contractors or subcontractors, of whom just one was supplying labour only. A follow-up investigation regarding insurability is under way in this case. Although not a determinant in the overall scale of the matter at national level, the result of the inspection yielding just one suspected case of false self-employment is consistent with the data indicating that false self-employment may not be as common as the prevailing narrative suggests, according to the Department.

Has the joint investigations unit of the Department and the Revenue Commissioners the capacity to unearth and determine these types of cases? Has the scope unit the capacity? The figures they are unearthing are relatively small in comparison with the narrative we are hearing about construction or transport, for example. The scope section does not seem to be unearthing the figures we believe it should be on an annual basis. Will the witnesses comment on that?