Mr. Ed Farrell:

It goes back to some of the points made. As we see it, the factors include the lack of a level playing pitch and the PCPs. The entities that are not subject to the same regulations or consumer protections are able to drive out loans or credit. We have a far different regime which is not helping the interest rate cycle. In recent years, during the recession, people were paying down their debts, not clearing them. Subject to Brexit, the country is now doing well and our loans are up. Our savings are up by more because all of the local branches of the banks have closed and people are taking out their money. They are thinking they are supporting us by lodging the money, but really it is a headache. The credit unions are providing a social service by minding the people's money, but they are not making a return. As everyone has said, we are increasing the capability of credit unions, be it through current accounts in the mortgage space or the SME space. As Mr. Corr said, as the mortgage space is complex enough, we have our own back offices which are helping credit unions to do more on mortgages. We have to convince the Central Bank to widen the limits, with a view to dealing with more. We have shown that credit unions can and will offer mortgages. It is the same with SME lending.

We are probably at cross bats. When we say micro-credit, we are talking about the €500 social welfare loan. It is in that regard that we are losing money in offering a rate of 12%. Competitors are charging rates of 200% and 300%. When the Senator talks about micro-credit, he is probably talking about small SMEs, to which credit unions are loaning at rates of 6%, 7% and 8%. That is enough once they can underwrite the loans and understand the set of accounts and projections the businessman brings in. For consumer protection purposes, the credit unions have to do a business plan with the tradesman, be it a carpenter or a plumber.

That is almost an oxymoron. The tradesman would not call it a business plan but that is what has to be done and there are consumer protections in place, as is only right and proper. Credit unions are providing these loans at interest rates of 6% and 7% but again this is done on an individual basis because each credit union is individual in law and in regulation.