Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Chairman for inviting me and for facilitating my attendance in the scheduling of the meeting. I have watched nearly all the hearings of this committee very closely and I am very much aware of the extensive engagement it has had and will continue to have. The Committee of Public Accounts will also engage on the issue later this week and I will be back at this committee next week with senior HSE management for our quarterly exchange. We will continue to scrutinise this issue for quite some time.

When the overrun became apparent to me, it would be an understatement to say I was very disappointed, very concerned and very frustrated. These are serious sums of taxpayers' money so it is right and proper to get to the bottom of exactly what happened and to seek answers. That is why the Government did not decide to simply proceed with the project. I will get to why we made that decision because it has been a little bit lost in the conversations I have been following up to now. We decided that we would proceed with the project but we also decided that, while doing so, we would also have an external review. That external review will be published and brought to Government. It will be shared with this committee and I expect everybody to come before the committee to answer questions. I will not, however, pre-empt the outcome as regards where accountability lies, which is something I have seen creeping into the debate on the issue. We have seen what happens when the Oireachtas does not afford people due process and I do not think that is a very good way of carrying out parliamentary business.

I will make three brief points. First, this project is under way. I have heard people in these committee rooms describe it as a big hole in the ground at St. James's Hospital but it is not that. The building is under way and the outpatient urgent care centre in Connolly Hospital is due to open in a couple of months, while the sod is due to be turned on Tallaght.

The project is finally under way. It was first discussed in the Oireachtas in 1962. Approximately €40 million of taxpayers' money was wasted on the project trying to build it on the Mater site but it is now under way. We should not lose sight of what it is doing. I have heard very detailed discussions about bed numbers, equating the entire cost of the project to bed numbers. I respectfully suggest that this somewhat misses the point. For example, our children's hospitals today have 14 theatres. This new national children's hospital will have 22 theatres. If you look at any of the data, Chairman, more operations, day case procedures, inpatient procedures and emergency department attendances will be catered for. There will be a new model of care. I heard people over the weekend ask why we would be building an expensive roof garden on the top of this hospital and suggesting the children could go to the many parks in Dublin. That level of ignorance about the project shows a lack of understanding that these are some of the sickest kids who will spend months and months in hospital.

Yes, this is an extremely expensive project. None of what I have said is to take away from my serious concerns about the cost overrun. Ministers are presented with options. When the cost overrun became apparent to my Department in August, when the level and scale of it became apparent to my Department in November, when we then engaged with other colleagues across Government and brought it to Government in December for a decision, I really had three options that I could take. The first option was to pause the project. I am not pausing the building of the national children's hospital. It has been paused far too many times. There are kids who are now adults who have kids who are hoping to benefit from the national children's hospital. The second option was to re-tender the project. I heard somebody suggest we should have a chat with the builder. All of the expert evidence was that re-tendering the project would have cost more for the taxpayer above and beyond the very significant existing cost and would have increased the length of time it would take to deliver this project, which is already well overdue in terms of the expectation of the Irish people. The third option was to proceed. That is the decision that I took. It was one of the hardest decisions the Government has made in my time in government, certainly the hardest decision I have asked the Government to make. If this was any other project, one might be thinking one could not go any further with it but we could not stop this project because it is so badly needed in terms of the infrastructure for our children.

The overrun is very significant and I am not in any way deviating from that or undermining its significance. This is massive and the Chairman and members of the committee are quite right to highlight it. However, it is not an overrun of €1 billion as I have heard people reference at this committee. That is comparing apples with oranges. It is going back to a time of a different site without planning permission in a different time. It is like someone trying to pretend one was building one's house on a different site ten years ago - I have heard a lot of analogies about houses. That is not what we are doing. The comparison, in terms of the overrun, is of the figure I brought to the Government in 2017 with the figure today and that is an increase of about €450 million. It is a colossal overrun and there is no getting away from that, but it is not €1 billion. The figure is €450 million. The committee has heard in great detail from its witnesses as to how they arrived at that point. It has scrutinised whether the guaranteed maximum price, GMP, process was the right one to use. I do need to point out that this was recommended by our various procurement bodies, by the Government's contracts committee and by all of the expert advice available. The Mazars report also suggests this was the appropriate way to go, while highlighting significant concerns in terms of oversight. I have no doubt but that when the PwC report comes back in March, there will need to be changes and improvements in how this project is managed and overseen. There is no doubt about that. There are powers available to me under the existing legislation that was only passed by the Oireachtas in recent weeks. I will assess all of the options available to me when that report is published and we actually have all of the facts in front of us.

I have heard a couple of other comments made about de-scoping the project. Again, there is very little value in doing that without actually compromising the safety standard. That seems to be the expert view. I have heard lots of different opinions but the committee must remember we have construction inflation. We had a situation in respect of design fees as well, and there is absolutely no doubt but that the Government as a collective is extraordinarily disappointed, frustrated and worried about this issue. We will get to the bottom of it. There are learnings both for this capital project, the largest health capital project in the history of the State, and for every other capital project. I will not be found wanting in making sure the lessons are learned, that the learning is implemented and that changes are made where necessary. I will await the report but I will not entertain any talk of pausing or moving the project. I have been reading articles today about moving it to a greenfield site. This hospital is being built. It is under way. The children of Ireland need it. Yes, it is expensive, perhaps too expensive, but we have now got to get this project done.