John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I will start at the end again. The Senator speaks for himself when he said we do not care about councillors. As has been outlined, I have been acutely aware that councillors are not adequately remunerated.

They are probably fed up hearing me say that but in order to change anything, one has to produce a body of evidence for why it should happen. The need for change might be obvious to Senator Craughwell and to me but citizens, ratepayers and property taxpayers have to be convinced because it is their money not the Senator's or mine. I am committed to changing the system.

It is interesting that among the issues identified by Ms Moorhead in her report is the PRSI discrepancy to which many members referred. I acknowledge what has been done in the past but we must now decide on the way forward. My position from the commencement of this process has been that politicians should not be deciding the pay of other politicians and that councillors should be linked to the public sector. I am sure this might be one of the proposals that comes out of this process. I expect that what we will end up with is different potential solutions. That is my preference but I have tasked Ms Sara Moorhead with that job. She is brilliant and her forensic skills are all over this short but succinct report. I encourage members of the committee, and the non-members who are in attendance, to read the report a few times because sometimes the solutions are not obvious on a first reading. I get a sense from councillors that they are disappointed that no amount is mentioned in the report but there are a lot of indicators as to how Ms Moorhead believes this issue should be resolved. Ms Moorhead will take up these trains of thought with the secretariat over the next few months.

I acknowledge the points made about Ms Moorhead's concluding remarks. The report also seeks to address the issue of whether the role is part-time or full-time. Deputy Barry referred to people who are working in the private sector and having difficulty getting time off work. In the second last line of the report, Ms Moorhead states that it would be fair to say that much of the engagement to date has not just concentrated on remuneration for councillors but on support systems for them and how the executive can support them. That support system must address issues such as how they can access time off and in a way whereby employers will not be at a loss. This may involve other measures in other Departments that we have not mentioned in terms of taxation. I do not know what Ms Moorhead will recommend, but that would be an obvious option that has just come to mind.

Several members spoke against surveys. I am not against them. Some councillors are more involved with the AILG and LAMA than others. When I was a councillor, I was a member but I do not disrespect anybody who is not. Surveys should not be an issue. The submissions that were received from the AILG and LAMA were excellent. I read them several times. Surveying councillors directly outside of the representative groups is the right thing to do.

I agree with Senator Murnane O'Connor that the role of the councillor is central. This is supported in the interim report. To come up with a final package, one has to examine powers and functions. The reality is that town councils do not exist and are unlikely to re-emerge in the short term. In terms of savings in that regard, Senator Davitt referenced a saving of €25 million and another member mentioned €5 million. The unanswered question is why should people in particular towns get two ballot papers while everyone else gets one. It is a basic question of democracy as far as I am concerned that it should be one person, one vote for local authorities. The AILG and LAMA broadly support a marrying of the old system with the municipal district structure and the transfer of funding previously given to the town councils to the municipal districts. I would not be averse to doing that.

Senator Davitt mentioned that the report lacks specifics. I have already indicated my position in that regard. Reading between the lines of what I have to hand - the only communication I have had is the report as well - the indication from the chair is that to give specifics we will have to deeper delve. I will endeavour to ensure that we get the report in March and that this kicks in for the new councils.

I thank members for their contributions. I will be back, I am sure, to discuss this issue further.