Frances Black (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for their clear and precise presentations. This is my first time to get an understanding of Deputy O'Callaghan's Bill. The work that Ms Deane is doing is absolutely fantastic. I cannot imagine what it would be like for a family member to lose somebody to homicide. When we bring it back to the human level of what it is like for family members - the devastation they feel when they lose somebody in this way - we appreciate that it must be one of the worst things that can happen to a family. I just want to name that. I hear our guests' frustration regarding the judicial system. I do not know a huge amount about the latter, but I agree with Ms Malone's point that it can be very messy because it has to deal with trauma, crisis, addiction and mental health, with which I would be very familiar.

I understand why Deputy O'Callaghan would want to introduce a Bill such as this. It is about protecting the community. Some of the work I do in the area of addiction and mental health happens within prisons. Many of the women I work with - I work with women only - experienced childhood traumas of the kind described by Ms Malone. In many cases, they have been victims of crime and have ended up in addiction because of violence or sexual abuse. I really understand that there has to be compassion from that perspective. I hope I am getting it right when I say I am hearing from everybody - including Ms Deane, who has an understanding from a family perspective - that there needs to be more interagency work. I completely agree with that. Agencies and organisations must work together. I was struck by Ms Deane's really important comment that families are not getting heard by the judges. There must be some way for mental health and addiction organisations to come together as part of an interagency approach to work with people who commit crimes.

I will give an example. When my mother had a small shop many years ago, a man armed with a knife jumped the counter. It was absolutely terrifying for her as an old woman. He robbed her, but she survived. When he told his story in court - he had young kids, they were homeless, he was not in addiction and he just needed money - she ended up feeling really sorry for him because he was given six months in prison. I know I am only giving a small example of the reality of people who commit crimes and why they commit them. There is always a story involved. I suppose that is from where I am coming. It does not help when one loses somebody. I suppose I am just not sure that this is the answer. When one is dealing with addiction, one often sees that the prisons are in crisis. Prison officers are in crisis because they are all burnt out and exhausted. They are all trying to deal with their own mental health issues. It is just a cycle. It is a vicious circle. It would be great if we could look at all of that. I suppose that is where I would be coming from in this respect.

I thank all of our guests for their presentations, which have given me a really good understanding of what is going on in the context of the judicial system. We see it all the time. Last month, a judge let a young man walk free even though there was evidence that he may have committed rape. By contrast, a woman who broke open a packet of Pringles in a shop got four months in prison. Something is not right with the judicial system. That is what I am saying. That matter really needs to be addressed. I do not really have any questions, I just want to thank our guests for their clear and precise presentations.