Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I thank all the witnesses for coming in. I want to start, if I may, with a quote from Tom Cronin, who appeared before the committee just a few months ago. He is a former board member of Caranua. It is important to remember the people we are talking about here and what they have gone through. Mr. Cronin said:

What happened to us as children was a shame on the nation but what has been done to us since is a greater shame. As a survivor, I have experienced the anger, hurt, despair and frustration of engaging with the redress commission and other State-established resources. As a survivor advocate for more than 20 years and a former board member of Caranua, I have personally witnessed many survivors experiencing the same. These schemes and the State’s response to our past have failed on an ongoing fashion for one reason, namely, they never listened to survivor needs.

As one can hear from that quote, the testimony of Mr. Cronin on that day was absolutely powerful, as was that of Dr. Mary Lodato. I suspect we have unanimity across all parties here because all parties have received representations telling us of appalling experiences at the hands of Caranua. Only this morning I heard that someone who physically handed in an application received a dressing-down; "How dare you come down to our offices". How can anyone imagine that is an appropriate response? This happened in the last month, by the way, to someone who suffered abuse. What kind of culture is there in the organisation Caranua that makes it okay to act like that? It is absolutely shocking. I appeal to the Department because we have to work together. We are not here to give it a hard time. We just need to make sure that Mr. Cronin's request is followed up on and that survivors are listened to. We have to recognise that.

I echo my colleague, Senator Ruane's call for an independent investigation. We need that because we are unable to produce a report. We are told that we cannot produce a report as a committee because of conflicting evidence. We cannot leave it as it is so we have to have an independent investigation. Otherwise, we have failed to listen again. I do not believe any of us, including the witnesses, would want to leave it in that position. I call for an independent investigation. I also call for a new management structure to be put in place as a matter of urgency to make sure that things improve from here on in.

I have a couple of questions. I am going to rattle through them. I am conscious that the Department's representatives have a lot of questions to answer here today so I will briefly get through as many as I can and then hand over to our colleagues. My questions are around the processing of applications. I am sure the Department will agree that Caranua's primary role is to accept and process applications, applying the criteria to each case, and to either pay for the service or to give the applicant a written determination letter giving the reason for refusal. What can the Department tell us about the 2016 appeal officer's investigation of Caranua and its refusal to process applications?

We believe that at the time Caranua put these breaches down to an "oversight" on its part.

What has been the Department's reaction each year to the "serious concerns" raised in each of the appeal officer's annual reports published in 2016, 2017 and October 2018? Caranua still refuses to process applications, fails to issue written determinations and fails to give information about the right of appeal. Last month, the Taoiseach said he wanted evidence of this, and we assume he has been directed to these reports. I am somewhat concerned by what Mr. Costello said in his opening statement about people now receiving written determinations, because that is not what the appeals officer told us in the report he produced last month in which he said there continue to be cases on this issue. I do not understand, therefore, how the Department included that line when the appeals officer's report told us that is not the case.

The evidence from the appeals officer and the other reports demonstrate these failings are widespread and affect hundreds, if not thousands, of applicants. How has the Department responded to the reports of this? Given these practices have been ongoing for four years, in the Department's estimation how many applicants may not have had their applications properly determined and thus denied a right of appeal? It is important to know that and, in fairness, if we do not know, that again tells us why we need this independent investigation. Under the Act which concerns Caranua, the Minister has power to direct it and, while it would be improper for him to give directions in respect of an individual case, it would be appropriate for him to issue a direction to Caranua to compel it to act in accordance with the Act and to stop the unlawful policy of delaying or refusing to process and determine applications. In the context of these widespread abuses, why did the Minister not direct Caranua to act in accordance with the statute at any point in the past three years?