Mr. John Murphy:

Deputy Ó Broin raised a number of specific issues on the report and after responding to them I will make some more general comments. He referred to households being reluctant to leave family hubs or other accommodation to take up the housing assistance payment. The concern is not in any way to penalise them but to get more intensive engagement to understand the reasons and identify practical measures, some of which we specifically recommended. These include that people should not be penalised in any way in terms of their place on a social housing list and that there would be greater flexibility in transfers between local authorities. We made a number of recommendations that are being followed up by the Department. There was never any intention of penalising them.

The issue of people who may not have status is, by definition, very difficult to get to the bottom of because such people tend to be below the radar of all arms of the State. If we are trying to find ways to improve joined-up government, which is essentially what I was asked to focus on, we have to shine a light into some corners where everybody around the table is saying we do not know what the story is but we know anecdotally there are issues. If we were to try to design a policy to deal with the issue, assuming we knew the extent of it, it would not be an easy set of questions to answer. This is an area that needs to be looked at. The issue is not to state we will not provide any support to such people. Clearly, there is a humanitarian issue at a very basic level. After this, we must think through what are the implications for how we manage immigration, income support and access to housing, health services and education. This needs to be worked through. One of the purposes of establishing the group is to think about some of the issues that perhaps do not immediately present as headline issues and ensure they are examined.

On the question of numbers, what are counted and how they are interpreted, we identified there are gaps in the data that need to be addressed. I would certainly not favour using a regular monthly set of data because the dynamics of homelessness are changing and, as Professor O'Sullivan said, they are likely to change further. We have not even thought about other issues, such as the potential impact of Brexit on immigration, what might happen in the wider housing market and how it might impact on the supply of private rented accommodation. There are all sorts of other much broader social and economic issues that could impact on the dynamics of homelessness. Therefore, we need more regular data. We also need more detailed data at more periodic intervals that will help us to get to the bottom of some of these issues.

To be absolutely clear, I have absolutely no interest in reducing the number for statistical reasons. I am interested in what the data tell us about practical measures that need to be implemented across government, where the blockages are in terms of interagency co-operation or whether it is a resources issue. This is why the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is on our group, so it is very clear about the resources issues.

At a practical level, if I put on my to Depaul hat in the context of the comments made by Professor O'Sullivan that a licensee is not a permanent tenant and, therefore, perhaps he or she should be counted as homeless, I would say if, as I understand is the case, the intention of the licensee arrangement entered into by a local authority is that it will continue until the person is in a position to move to a permanent tenancy, I would be very happy if many of the people Depaul deals with could move to this situation from the situation they are in. We certainly need to have clarity and consensus on what we are counting and why we are counting it and that everybody operates the pathway accommodation and support system, or any other system that is put in place, on this basis. However, I do not want this to become a distraction from the real challenges we face in terms of getting the best use of State resources and the best level of co-operation we can get between the various arms of the Government working in conjunction with the NGOs. We have made a number of recommendations on improving the level of involvement of and consultation with NGOs, including through the consultative forum and reconvening the data subgroup or some other agreed arrangement.

In addition to the data issues, much research has been carried out by various bodies of which Professor O'Sullivan is very well aware, including some commissioned or funded by the NGOs and some commissioned by the Housing Agency or other parts of Government. We need a better understanding of the areas that need to be researched and who is best placed to carry out or fund this research. I ask that people please talk to each other about it rather than ending up with a small, limited report on one aspect of the issue, with other reports covering other aspects because people have not spoken to each other. I must hold up my hand and state Depaul has been involved in commissioning some research on the health outcomes of homeless people and what it means for the health service. This could be done on a much broader basis but we would need much greater joined-up thinking on what should be done and how it should be done.

My focus in the coming months will be on who is doing what to implement the recommendations of the group. It is not fixed in time. The dynamics of how we will approach this are changing and we may need to think about more innovative solutions. This could mean whatever we are doing does not fit with the categories we count on a regular basis and we will have to think about that. Inevitably, some of these changes will be at risk of being misrepresented as changing the statistics but it is a dynamic situation and what we do and how we do it must reflect this. My focus will be very much on the practical and on calling people to account, asking them whether they did what they said they would do and whether it is working, as well as what we need to do to change.