Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

Deputy Coppinger had a clean opportunity without any interaction at all from other members. Workers at all levels are equal and should be treated equally. We should not be saying certain workers should be allowed conscientious objection and other workers should not. That is a really important point.

We have been having this back and forth on guidelines and primary legislation for the past three days. This is one area the Minister needs to relinquish. The opposition is not just from what people would call the pro-life side of the debate. There is fair opposition around the country, left, right and centre, on this issue. Primary legislation trumps medical guidelines. Furthermore, this is a change to the medical guidelines. The Minister mentioned the medical guidelines in respect of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act. That was a requirement in respect of abortion in cases in which the life of the woman was under threat and had to be protected. For a start, the level of conscientious objection that would exist in such a case is zero. Second, the position would be that the guideline would be deleted if that Act were repealed.

The Chair was very close to nailing it in this situation.

We are introducing a new law and the language in this particular section is the same language as the particular other law, but it is for a different right, not the right to have an abortion in the case where the mother's life is under threat but the right to have an elective abortion in a scenario before 12 weeks for other reasons, and important reasons they may be. It is a different right. Therefore the guidelines designed by the Medical Council on this particular issue will not have to give the same level of precedence to passing information, etc. In actual fact, I have spoken to a number of barristers on this issue and their view is that the Medical Council could not but develop guidelines that actually reflect the law. They would have to respect the law.

Where the Minister refers to arrangements for abortions up to 12 weeks without indication, the Medical Council would have to implement that. That is where the doctors are having the real difficulty. It is not a replication. It is a completely new situation, under completely new circumstances, where the Medical Council is going to have to follow the law on this. That is why my request would be that this needs to be put into primary legislation to deal with that.

On pharmacies, Deputy O'Connell made a point that I wanted to raise. People do not realise the level of engagement pharmacists have on this. They purchase stock for their localities but pharmacists in hospitals would have to provide for this situation. The Minister said that reasonable action was necessary. Action is not passive. It is an involvement in a process. The Bill is forcing the pharmacists to be involved. We are getting lost in ourselves in a way. All of this can happen as all of the pro-choice TDs want without forcing one individual to do something that he or she does not want to do. That is what we are talking about. We are talking about forcing individuals to do things that are completely against their wishes. In a liberal democracy, surely we should not be doing that.