Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I largely agree with Deputy Bríd Smith. We are at risk of rerunning the campaign here, which would not help any woman in crisis today. We have had two long days of debate and I am sure we will have another intense day of debate today. There is a duty on us to proceed through the amendments, give them consideration and move this legislation forward.

I will recap quickly on a number of points relating to the amendment. The title of the proposed new section is "Information and informed consent". Deputy Donnelly is entirely correct that implicit in that is a suggestion that without this section, there is no information or informed consent. That is not true. As I outlined, informed consent is long established medical practice, which is enshrined in Medical Council guidelines, the Medical Council being the regulator of doctors which can strike off a doctor. Informed consent, consent and information exist. What the Deputies are trying to do is rewrite what the term "information and informed consent" means to suit a particular viewpoint. While they are absolutely entitled to hold it, that view is not objective. Our medics know what to do to comply with the law and their duties under Medical Council guidelines.

Several speakers referred to commitments given by various people. I gave a straightforward commitment that in the event that the people of Ireland voted "Yes", I would move ahead with legislation in line with the general scheme that was published in March. There may be ways of technically improving that, and we have discussed this from many perspectives over the past two days, but that was the commitment I gave and the reason I am here today is to move it forward. We debated the general scheme intensively during the referendum campaign. I heard it debated on radio programmes when people texted in questions and we had head-to-head debates on it, including one between me and Deputy Tóibín. The debate took place very much in the context of the general scheme and the section proposed in amendment No. 146, or anything resembling it, did not appear in the general scheme for good reason.

Deputy Nolan stated the amendment was about giving women choice. Apart from the irony of that comment, it is also not true. Amendments matter and, as our President says, words matter. The words of this amendment are very simple. It uses the phrase "shall be carried out" and refers to consent to a termination of pregnancy being voluntary and informed "if and only if". Let us not in any way suggest there is any choice as to whether a woman or her doctor would go through the detailed protocol that those who signed the amendment wish to insert in the legislation. The amendment does not provide for choice. If this section is inserted in the Bill, any woman in crisis seeking to access a termination of pregnancy will have to comply with all the various tests set out.

To be clear, there is no choice.

I have made my points about the reference to the father of the foetus, and how I genuinely believe that represents a misunderstanding and suggests there is only a certain type of woman who needs to access termination. That is not borne out by the statistics. That is my interpretation of it and it is my job to outline how I interpret it. It is also factually incorrect, because it refers to situations "where [the father] has offered to pay for the termination of pregnancy". As we have already discussed at great length, termination of pregnancy in Ireland will be provided for universally as part of the public health service, so no woman will need any man to pay for it. Let us put that where it belongs.

I really believe that no woman ever wants to find herself in a crisis pregnancy, and the more I have met women in these situations, the more I believe it. No woman would want it for herself and I would never want it for a woman in my life. No one wants to be in that situation. However, if a woman finds herself in that situation for whatever reason, and there is always a reason, we need to make sure the system we put in place is compassionate, sensitive and effective in how it operates. I do not attach any value judgment to the Deputy's perspective, but I genuinely believe this does not help in achieving that.

As much as I oppose every element of this amendment, I am particularly disappointed that when those who drew it up decided to exclude certain groups from having to go through this rigorous protocol, they still chose to include parents of unborn babies with fatal foetal abnormality. That is particularly cruel. Subsection (4) of the amendment refers to a "suitably qualified person" - we will get to that point in a moment - sitting down with the mum and going through the features of that foetus and its state of development. These are people who have experienced fatal foetal abnormalities. They have probably gone through their 20-week scan, with the great excitement of seeing their baby and looking forward to its arrival, only to find out that their baby does not have a brain or a heart. It is a particularly cruel aspect that parents like those I have met from Terminations for Medical Reasons Ireland, TFMR, would have some suitably qualified person sit down and explain the features to them in great detail. I am sure it was not intentional, but it is in the amendment.

The amendment references a "suitably qualified person". I am not sure who that is. The idea here was that a woman and her doctor would have a conversation, a period of time would elapse and the procedure would take place. Does the phrase "suitably qualified person" mean we are now making it mandatory for a woman to see another person? She has already sat down and discussed her intimate private life with a doctor. Does she now have to discuss it with someone else? I am not quite sure who the suitably qualified person is. Who Deputy Tóibín would deem to be suitably qualified and who I would deem to be suitably qualified may not be the same.

It is true the HSE produces things on DVDs. The HSE does a great job promoting lots of things about the Healthy Ireland initiative, positive health and vaccination. Regrettably some people, although not Deputy Tóibín, have opposed the human papillomavirus, HPV, vaccine. I do not care about the modality of the information. Whether it is on a DVD, stored on a memory stick or uploaded to Netflix, I think it is offensive. My problem is not the method by which the information is to be communicated.

Finally, one of the reasons people in this country voted "Yes" was to make sure that when a woman made a choice she could access the service safely. During the referendum campaign I heard, as I am sure many committee members did, men and women saying that if it was their daughter they would want her to have support and to be able to talk to her doctor. They said they would want to know that she was not going on the Internet, ordering an illegal abortion pill and taking that pill in the loneliness of her bedroom or bathroom. The more hurdles are put in front of women, the more likely it is that the issue of illegal abortions will continue in this country. I respect all the Deputies here while fully disagreeing with them on this issue. I do not think any of us can argue it would be a good outcome for illegal abortions to continue and for women to continue to travel. Deputy Tóibín should note that 113 women from Meath travelled last year. We do not want to place challenges in front of these people and I am sure he does not want that either. We cannot continue to put onerous and unnecessary barriers in front of a service people have told us get on with introducing. Whether the Deputy agrees or disagrees, I know he respects the will of the people. We have a duty to make sure it works and is effective, and this amendment simply will not allow that to happen.