Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

This has been a useful debate. I am looking at the report of the Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution, which called on the Minister to amend the law. It states:

The Committee recommends that the law be amended to provide that(a) surgical terminations may only be legally carried out in a hospital setting [which we have done and]

(b) medical terminations may only be provided for through the licencing of medications for that purpose and prescribed by a qualified practitioner acting in good faith.

We have done that. It also states "The Committee further recommends that where terminations occur in such circumstances ... no criminal sanctions should apply." That is the case and there is no criminal sanction to a doctor operating in those circumstances, in good faith. I believe we are in agreement that in all cases "where a woman procures or seeks to procure an abortion for herself, the law should provide that, regardless of circumstances, she is not guilty of an offence". I believe those four tests that were outlined by the all-party committee have been met in the legislation.

Deputy Donnelly rightly pointed out, and I agree with this point, regardless of our personal opinions, we had to put forward a general scheme of a Bill that we believed encapsulated the greatest majority. We cannot all be looking into our hearts, guessing what the people of Ireland thought and perhaps we got some calls right and some calls not right, but this was the legislation that we largely put before the people, when we published the general scheme in March and the updated scheme in July after the referendum and when we published the Bill in September.

I think Deputy O'Connell is right to point out, particularly with her professional background, that there are risks. I refer to her phrase, "dangerous consequences", to operating outside of the legal framework and that is something that none of us can stand over. There is a reason that we have set out matters and the reason is not just a moral or policy one. There are reasons that outside the periods set out in the Bill, in certain circumstances it could be dangerous and we cannot stand over that.

We have come a long way. All sanctions for women and girls have been removed. There is no sanction for a doctor operating within the law. We have purposely tried to word the law in such a way that it is not Members or the Minister for Health deciding what is the appropriate call for the doctor. In some cases, it is the decision of one doctor, in other cases it is the decision of two doctors in their reasonable opinion, formed in good faith. This language is empowering the doctor, to try to remove the chilling effect in order that the doctor does not have to dust down a copy of Bunreacht na hÉireann or the legislation or ask him or herself what do the politicians want him or her to do in the circumstances. There are parameters in place that trust a doctor's clinical judgment and give a doctor's clinical judgment the protection of a decision based on their reasonable opinion and in good faith, which I think is important.

Let us also remember that this is not just about medical practitioners. Deputy Clare Daly raised the issue of someone removing one's leg illegally but we do not have a law about the removal of legs. We do, however, have a law about the regulation of termination of pregnancy and when one is putting in place a law, one is obligated to put into law what is legal and what is not. What I do not wish to do - the Oireachtas can do what it wishes - is deviate substantially from what we promised the people we would do. Again one can argue whether that was right or wrong but we said to the people we will allow abortion to be legal, regulated and safe in these very specific circumstances. I also said many times, as did many members, that outside of these circumstances it will continue to be illegal. Deputy Donnelly gave a very honest appraisal of the situation. Many people voted "Yes" in the knowledge that was the case, knowing the grounds on which they could vote "Yes" and support abortion happening, but in the knowledge that disability is not a ground and with limits beyond a certain period or beyond viability. There needs to a legal and an illegal piece to this debate or otherwise we have gone significantly beyond what the aforementioned committee and its cross-party members committed to doing.

There is also another point. The foetus has protection outside of these circumstances. Abortion in Ireland will be legal under these heads and in these circumstances but there will be protection for the foetus outside of those circumstances and if one removes section 5, there will be nowhere on the Statute Book where there is protection for the foetus. I genuinely do not think the Irish people voted for that. They voted for a very broad range of parameters, whereby termination would be allow, but they did not vote for termination in every single circumstance and they did not vote for termination not to be regulated and they not vote for there not to be a legality and an illegality in respect of these situations.

The people and the Government support the idea that the woman or girl should never be criminalised.

I am glad that Deputy O'Connell also made the point that the language in the Bill must be consistent. It cannot be that the Bill states in one section "end the pregnancy", in another "end the life of the foetus" and in another uses the word "abortion". If we do that, we will do a significant disservice to doctors and women because there will not be legal consistency. Deputy O'Connell asked whether that definition would apply if it had been changed earlier. The short answer is "Yes" because there must be consistency in the wording in all parts of the Bill. The harder question is whether we can come up with a formula of words that meets the needs of the medical community in operating the Act with legal consistency, but that is our job between now and Report Stage.