Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Tuesday, 6 November 2018

Select Committee on Health

Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage

11:00 am

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I presume Deputy Smith is being sarcastic because I know her views and record on this. I do not get Deputy Nolan's problem with it. I get that she is very sincere and I respect her right to have her view on abortion. She and I disagree on it and that is fine, and she has every right to hold her view, but I do not get why she has a difficulty with the Irish health service providing support. The idea of equating this with trolleys is a crass political attack on me. I will come in here and debate my record on health any time with any person, and I look forward to doing so, but this is a crass political attack. Approximately 80% of these procedures will be carried out in the community. None of these women will be on trolleys or in hospital beds. They will visit their GP or a family planning association. I am not re-running the referendum either, but most of the women in this country who find themselves in crisis will be seen in primary care. They will be nowhere near hospital trolleys or hospital beds. Those who will be in a hospital setting will often be in some of the most tragic situations. They will have a wanted pregnancy. Perhaps they will have been told the baby they desperately wanted has only half a head. I do not understand the Deputy's difficulty.

I really resent the phrase "elective abortion" because it goes back to the cheap connotation of abortion on demand. No woman I have ever met has said that she really wants an abortion. I do not know whether the Deputy has met any and perhaps she will tell us about them. These are people in extraordinarily difficult situations. It is not for Deputy Nolan or me to judge them. Thank God, the people of this country decided in their wisdom it is not for any of us to judge them. This legislation is about looking after them and caring for them in our own country. We should be moving towards a universal health service. This is my policy position and my ethical position.

Deputy Nolan fundamentally disagrees with the outcome of the referendum. I am sure she respects it and she respects democracy and that the people voted in favour of it. I accept some people voted against it and that is fine. Think of it from a practical point of view. If the idea here was that people voted by an overwhelming majority to repeal the eighth amendment and make these services available in our country at last, if we decide we are going to start charging people for the service cost will remain a barrier. The young woman will use the Internet and access the pill without any doctor or medical support. What the Deputy is trying to do here is to subvert the will of the people, which is to make sure women do not need to travel in these circumstances.

On a practical level the amendment is in the wrong place but that is for the Deputy to decide. If she wants to stop me doing this she needs to amend section 25 of the legislation that allows us to do this. Deputy Murphy O'Mahony asked where eligibility appears in the heads of the Bill. Eligibility was not dealt with in the heads of the Bill and I accept this. It is a policy decision I made. I very much made it in line with what I felt were the views of the majority of the Oireachtas and the people. That is my sense and the people can judge me on this decision. Obviously it will come to an Oireachtas vote. This is about the service being free, safe and legal. If it is not free it will be legal but it will not be safe because women in vulnerable situations will have to travel and women in vulnerable situations will not seek medical consultation. Whatever Deputy Nolan's view on termination, and I accept we have different views and I am respectful of this, if she found that a woman in her life was in crisis she would want that woman to have access to medical professionals. Regardless of the Deputy's view, and we have different views on this, if that woman is going to proceed with an abortion surely the Deputy would want to know it will happen in an environment that is safe, regulated and overseen by medical professionals. This is why I want to make sure that if women make that decision they can access the service.

We already have the maternity and infant care scheme. Pregnant women in the country today access free medical care. As the Chairman knows, it is a very successful scheme. I accept the Deputies here want to expand it further and I welcome this discussion and debate. Expectant mothers can already access their family doctor and the hospital obstetrician. It is a universal service and has nothing to do with means or whether people have a medical card. What the Deputy is asking me to do is discriminatory. She is asking me to state that, if two pregnant women are sitting in the waiting room of their doctor's surgery, because she approves of one of those women's choices she can have the service free but because she dislikes her choice the other woman must pay. Both pregnant women are deserving of access to the Irish healthcare system. The only difference is one woman is making a decision the Deputy does not approve of. Quite frankly, whether the Deputy or I approve of it is not the issue, it is the woman's choice. I will not discriminate where the only difference between two women is their choice. I will not say one pays for the doctor and the other does not. That would be entirely discriminatory. We already have a scheme that cares for pregnant women that is universal and provides free access. All we are simply doing is stating the same fundamental policy principles should apply to all women regardless of their choice. The Deputy has a different view.

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