Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister's comments but I support Deputy O'Reilly's amendment. It sounds like many of us are on the same page in what we want to achieve and the 2005 Act is clearly very important. I want to press this a little more. One of the great problems with the eighth amendment was that it caused confusion for doctors. There were several issues with it but one was that it caused confusion and a lack of clarity. That is what the doctors told us. I am concerned that if we do not amend this legislation, that same lack of clarity could be reproduced here. We have not reached the sections yet but sections 5 or 6 relate to offences and there is still a reference to a 14-year jail term for straying outside the provisions of this legislation. Doctors, nurses, midwives and everybody involved with termination of pregnancy services will be taking this deadly seriously and ensuring they are protected, as well as the pregnant people.

The Minister, having access to departmental advice and the Attorney General's office, can have a conversation with us about the matter referencing the 2005 Act and therefore seeing this as okay. A GP in a surgery or an obstetrician or gynaecologist in an acute setting will not have that knowledge. They will have the Bill, which references a pregnant woman, and they could be dealing with a trans man. They could be dealing with a pregnant person who not only identifies as being male but who has been legally recognised as male and has an Irish passport stating that he is male, despite being pregnant. The question is whether we are creating confusion in such circumstances for the doctor. He or she may look at it and think that if he or she gets it wrong, he or she could be going to jail for 14 years. The doctor would not want to get it wrong. He or she might not know what the 2005 Act states but there is reference to "pregnant woman" in this legislation. The patient in question may be a man, defined and identifying as a man with a passport that indicates he is male. What would the doctor do? My concern is there would be confusion.

I am supportive of the amendments. Such circumstances may be at the margin. The 2005 Act was highly progressive but we have moved on 13 years and other things have happened. There has been recognition of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual people, as well as gay marriage and rights. I support the amendments but I take in good faith the comments of the Minister. He is not pushing against the spirit of the amendments. I would like the Minister to address if he could the points I raised.

My concern is that a doctor will read the legislation, which will say "pregnant woman", and be unsure what to do. We have seen that sort of confusion in the past with the eighth amendment, leading to some tragic outcomes.