Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

If there are specifics that I leave out, Mr. Loftus will fill them in for me.

Senator Ruane raised a number of practical scenarios, such as a child being locked into a bathroom. This would become an issue if there were a fire. That is where people's concerns are. The standard of the building is paramount.

I have been picking up bits of anecdotal information from public representatives about minor issues, such as doors jamming, but if one has minor issues in any building, it is something that one must take seriously and on which one must follow through. Obviously, the point at which one is aware there is a structural assessment required or a suspicion of concern is when one moves into a completely different space, as we did on Friday fortnight last.

I will let Mr. Loftus go into the detail on tendering process, the quality assurance and oversight. The tendering process, etendering, is outside the political process. It applies not only in Ireland, but in Northern Ireland and in Europe. That is our tendering system. Considering that 19 out of the 42 schools that needed external works did not have the same trend as Ardgillan, Tyrrelstown and Lucan, the different trends are alarming. Corners were cut, for example, in Ardgillan, and one would question what were the reasons. Was it time? The Deputy is correct. Wall ties certainly will not cost much. It goes down also to people's pride in their work. Many of the buildings in this country that are used as educational buildings are over 100 years old. Old colleges that were built to standards and regulations at that time are still standing and here we are talking about schools that were built in the past ten years. That bit is not leaving my head. This is something we all take seriously.

I was asked what triggered the appointment of the 2017 clerk of works. I assume it was the Grenfell fire but Mr. Loftus might add to that. It would have been the assessment work that was carried out on the other schools.

On engagement back and forth, I was asked about self-certification of schools. This is the space that we need to bring this conversation into now. Are we happy with the type of oversight with regard to self-certification? Even in the private sector, most builds have experienced an average extra cost of 18% because of the new rules brought in in 2014. The extra costs are due to delays. There are delays because designers are taking their work really seriously. They are sitting down with the contractor and stating they will not move to the next stage until they ensure that everything is done properly. For instance, they may not move until they have a meeting with the fire officer on-site the following week, and where it turns out that they cannot get him that week, they might get him the following week. This is delaying projects, and that is correct. If that is happening in the private sector, as I am picking up anecdotally, it must be happening across the board as well. It is something we must be conscious of.

Mr. Loftus might talk about the snags issue after the completion of a project as well. There is obviously a default period after signing over and getting payment.

I was asked what went wrong in Ardgillan. Senator Ruane mentioned the word, "negligence". According to my information, it was simple things, such as the inside timber leaf not being adjoined to the sealed structure, the timber leaf on the inside not sitting properly on the concrete in the right place, and wooden nails going down through the concrete when one would only assume that these should be bolts. The Senator encapsulated it by using the word, "negligence". That is why that phase 1 building from 2009 was closed down in its entirety. That building was separate and as for that trend in Ardgillan, the same level of negligence did not appear elsewhere. That is not in any way justifying the different weaknesses in the other buildings.

As for lessons learned for the future, this committee will play a role in how we move into the new space of providing greater vigilance and oversight to ensure that this does not happen again. Deputy Funchion rightly pointed out the lessons learned on the PPP buildings. We have schools half-finished and a company went wallop. There are subcontractors who are owed money and now we must re-tender. Due to time lost, there will be extra money involved. Once again, it beings a negative to something which should be a complete positive for communities.

As for the State playing a bigger role, the State does not have the resources for complete oversight. From where does one take the responsibility? The legislation, both pre-2014 and post-2014, places the responsibility on the contractor and on the designer-architect. It is specific. It applied the whole way through the past ten years. That did not happen. I do not believe anyway that we should move to a situation where the State becomes responsible for oversight in its entirety. We must place responsibility. That is why we need to ensure that we follow up through all the legal channels to ensure culpability, responsibility and accountability. I have said that publicly from day one. I will continue to do so. That is the least I can do from the point of view of both taxpayers and the communities concerned.

I was asked who was liaising with the parents. What we did straight away was set up a communications unit, through an intervention by Deputy Thomas Byrne. We were working on whether we should go directly to the parents and how would we communicate this news. Then I visited the principal in Tyrrelstown who told me that there were 46 different nationalities in that school and that some of the parents may have difficulties on the communications side. These were the challenges. What was decided was - I thank Deputy Thomas Byrne for his intervention - that the communications unit in Tullamore would communicate directly with the schools, that is, with the principal and the teams there. As information came through, the principals fed it back to the parents in their respective communities.