Mr. Stephen Mulvany:

We can set out, as I think we have done before, the movement in administrative and management staff numbers over time, as well as the movement at the different levels from grade 3 all the way up. I am not saying there has not been an increase at the more senior level, but if one looks at the scale of the HSE and takes the EU definition of a large enterprise as one with 500 employees, the number of very senior managers for every bundle of 500 staff members does not compare unfavourably with what one would expect to see elsewhere. Certainly, we can set out the movement at all grades in the area of administration, if that would be of help.

On the State Claims Agency, I am not for one minute suggesting it does not predict its costs. Those costs can be somewhat difficult to predict and, depending on which actuarial assumptions are used, can vary a great deal. There were periods during which there was uncertainty about some costs. The fundamental issue with the State Claims Agency which is a part of the NTMA concerns when the Government will fund the costs which arise. Will they be funded at the start of the year or through the Supplementary Estimates process? It is accepted that it is a cost which is funded by central government. In other cases the equivalent amount would not actually be included in the main operational Vote. For example, the figure for public sector pensions might not be included in the main operational Vote. In the health service they just are.

On the lack of capacity to make decisions, I do not have the details of the specific example given by the Senator, but I am not saying it did not occur. The HSE can be criticised for being overly bureaucratic, but for some people a process of engagement and seeking consensus is I hope part of how we should do change management. I cannot comment on an individual meeting which was cancelled at short notice.