Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I thank all the witnesses, particularly Dr. Ó Broin, for attending this morning. I echo Senator Coffey's comments on the bureaucracy and difficulties community projects find in meeting the very high bar that has been set around accountability for many of them. That point is regularly raised with us. The issue seems to have become more burdensome in recent years. I have dealt with many community projects during the years and I know Paul Skinnader quite well from the past. The issue that seems to have come more into focus now is that it is all about ticking boxes and checking. Many people involved in community projects find that when they apply for a relatively small grant the level of accountability around it is not proportionate to the amount of money they receive. A person working in a community project said to me recently that all the people working in the community trying to get things done are just an excuse for other people to have good jobs, to go around checking on them, rather than delivering for them. I am not saying that is the case but that is an experience people have and they reflect that back to us.

Pobal carries out the role it has been given by the Department. I refer to the article 48 checks that are carried out around the country. The Department advises it that they must be done in a certain way. How does Dr. Ó Broin find the Department to deal with in that respect? I understand responsibility for those checks will be moved from Pobal to the local authorities soon. There are 28 local authorities covering rural areas around the country. How will they be trained to do that work which is now being done by one single body nationally, namely, Pobal? I live in Leitrim and the local authority there is under stress and pressure to do the work it does every day and now it will have the additional role of carrying out these checks. What level of training and capacity building will there be in the local authorities to carry out these checks?

Is the reason for that transfer of such responsibility that Pobal recognises the risk involved in such checks? For example, if Pobal says a project in south Kilkenny is doing very well and that everything is above board and then an inspection service of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine does another check and finds something wrong, is Pobal concerned it will be held responsible because it passed the check on the project? Is that the reason Pobal is passing the responsibility for these checks to the local authorities, or is it considered that role is more appropriate to the local authorities? If the latter is the case, why did the local authorities not have that role from the start?

Another area is the childcare sector. I visited a childcare facility in recent weeks and the issue of the financial checks they have to go through was raised with me. It is appropriate that childcare facilities are checked to see what way they are running their businesses. However, people can call to a childcare facility without notice at 9.30 a.m. and say they want to carry out a financial check. The difficulty with such a check is that the people running the facility must also comply with the regulations on the other side and ensure they have the appropriate number of staff in place for the number of children for whom they are caring. A member of staff may have to spend a day with a officer from Pobal checking through the books when that staff member should be looking after children. If, on the same day, an official from the other side of the regulations were to arrive to check on that aspect, the childcare facility would be found to be out of kilter in terms of its responsibilities. I have checked the position north of the Border where the same regulations are in place and a childcare facility is given three to five days notice of the carrying out of such a check. That means they can organise to have staff in place to ensure they have the necessary cover.

What has been the cost to date for Pobal to carry out the article 48 checks? It has been doing those checks for three years. How will that cost be borne by the local authorities? How much training on the carrying out of those checks will local authorities get?

Another issue is the level of wages paid to people who work in community projects. I know that is not directly the responsibility of Pobal. For example, people who are highly qualified in the childcare sector have very poor wages. That same applies to workers in all the community projects around the country. The maximum they can be paid is €8.65 an hour but if they need to be paid a living wage, from where will they get the balance to make that up? I would like Dr. Ó Broin to comment on what message that sends to the voluntary sector, which I acknowledge he clearly committed to, where workers are underpaid and under-resourced to such an extent?