Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

It was not and we were all in the AV room together. I am not the only person who saw it.

My view is that the legislation comes first. The legislation to entitlements is the driver. Earlier, the Minister appeared to be putting it the other way around. When everything is put in place, then and only then are we going to be in a position to legislate for maximum waiting times and entitlements. That goes against some of what we discussed in the course of our deliberations. What are the witnesses' views on that? My view is that if we keep waiting and we cannot get the legislation until everything is perfect, then everything will never be perfect and we will never get the legislation.

The Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the umbrella body for 90% of the workers in the health services, has a view that Sláintecare will be a key factor in recruitment and retention. It backs Sláintecare as a basis for dealing with the recruitment and retention crisis. Earlier, the Minister and Ms Laura Magahy attended the committee. They did not seem to have anything new to offer in terms of recruitment and retention and how we can attract new staff.

To refer to the point made earlier, if we do not get buy-in from healthcare professionals, we will not be able to deliver it. There are steps that can, and should, be taken by the powers-that-be, specifically the Government and Cabinet, that will show us that there is commitment. The public may not understand the intricacies of Sláintecare but they know what a waiting list is. They know when they cannot afford to pay for prescriptions. They know when they are standing in the chemists and have to make a choice between two medications they need but can afford only one. They understand these situations. I am curious as to whether the witnesses have any ideas on what can be done at a high level to instil the confidence that might drive some recruitment and retention. It will not drive all of it but it might drive some level of recruitment and retention. It might also improve the buy-in from those groups where there is not necessarily buy-in. Nurses, healthcare professionals and doctors via the IMO have substantially bought in. There are issues in Sláintecare that they do not love but they have some buy-in. There is clear hostility from other groups and some of this comes from reform fatigue. Do the witnesses have a view on how this can be driven at a high level to ensure we get buy-in from healthcare professionals?