Michelle Mulherin (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

There has been a series of votes in the Seanad and I apologise to the witnesses for having to leave the meeting to attend them. I apologise in advance if I repeat some of the questions.

I wish to ask about the new nearly zero energy building standard that will apply from the end of the year. It is necessary to build large numbers of houses and we have plans to do so. This is the topic of conversation every day. How much per unit will achieving the new building standard add to the cost of building the various types of housing, from private dwellings such as four-bedroom semi-detached houses to social housing? What additional costs must we budget for to ensure we meet the new standard?

Many people have retrofitted and made their houses more energy efficient. In terms of carbon taxes, what will happen to households that have heavily invested in making their houses more carbon efficient and less reliant on carbon? Some people may consider going off grid and becoming self-sufficient rather than taking electricity from the national grid. There are different ways to become self-sufficient, including installing solar panels. Maybe this is a policy matter but how should all of this play into how carbon taxes are applied? Will a PSO levy be universally applied to electricity bills? There is scope to incentivise people and reward people.

As we heard, people will seek to borrow money to adapt their homes. Low-cost loans to help people to make their houses or properties more energy efficient were mentioned. Sums of €30,000 and €40,000 were mentioned. I am not sure whether these would be needed for domestic or commercial buildings. These are very stark realities. The fact that new builds and major renovations are to be hit by this requirement and an additional cost will be news to many people. I am not saying the new building standard has not been talked about. However, the message on energy efficiency and climate change is sometimes unclear or people just do not hear it.

Mr. Griffin highlighted the progress the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government is making in investing in upgrading local authority housing stock. As we discussed with Professor John Fitzgerald, these upgrades simply involve the installation of more efficient oil boilers and households will be stuck with them for the next 15 or 20 years. People who live in a local authority house are not presented with a choice of heating systems. The choice is made for them, yet they must pay in the form of carbon tax on coal or whatever else. The Department has already spent a substantial amount on these upgrades. Are they good value for money? Does the energy rating of homes improve following the upgrades? What is the average energy rating of houses that have been upgraded by the local authorities?

The SEAI has spent a significant amount on grants to people seeking to improve the energy rating of their houses. How many homes have a BER A? I am sorry but I did not hear the figures given for the number of houses that have been grant-aided and the number of additional units. How much did that cost?

I have raised the issue of land use for some time, certainly as far back as Mr. Pat Rabbitte's time as Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. On the one hand, we had the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine setting out its 2025 targets, while, on the other, we had the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment, of which Mr. Griffin is Secretary General, talking about energy crops, carbon sequestration and all of that sort of thing. The problem was that there did not appear to be any formal engagement between Departments on the issue of land use. We have only a limited amount of land and there must be agreement on how best to use it. The Departments must interact to some degree on their plans. What have they agreed? How does the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment view the targets set out in Food Wise 2025?

We are being told that land use is an issue or a problem. On the agriculture side we are even told - we had a man from An Taisce before the committee - that reclaiming certain land can release excess carbon so, where farmers are trying to make land more productive, they should not. There are an awful lot of gaps between the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the witnesses' Department in respect of this issue. These gaps need to be filled in order to give a clearer picture of what we are doing and what direction we are going in. The question is really what has been done formally. What agreements and so on are in place between the Departments? I asked the question of both the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the then Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, at the time. I continued to ask it over a period of time and an answer was never given.

On the issue of renewable electricity on the grid - this question is particularly for the ESB and I am sure the Department also has an interest in it - there is no doubt that there are serious challenges around transmission. There has been talk here of offshore wind and so on but even in parts of the country in which there is onshore wind there is no proper grid. It is very piecemeal. For example, Grid West was abandoned. There were issues around Grid West and I would suggest that there are issues around the fact that, at the time, the State or Government and EirGrid would not contemplate undergrounding. I know EirGrid is mandated to deliver grid in the most efficient and cheapest way but the reality is that it has cost so much and there has been so much delay in realising the build-out of transmission that this should be taken into account. How are the issues around grid going to be overcome?

If we were to go with offshore wind, we have a SEAI wave energy test site in my own county and, although that technology is probably a bit more into the future, there is obviously potential for offshore wind there as well. We have no transmission capacity or grid, other than to Bellacorick where there is a former peat-burning power station. There is no grid whatsover so any electricity generated there will be on the distribution line, or whatever way it is done. The concerns of communities have not been tackled. I address this to the ESB in particular as this is its sphere or area. What is the way forward on this? I know there is always talk about rewarding communities - and I know Eirgrid is charged with rolling out the transmission infrastructure - but surely undergrounding has to be looked at further. Equally I understand that electricity could be brought around offshore even though I know this will all add to the cost.