Ms Marie Donnelly:

Thank you very much indeed for the invitation to join the committee today. It is an exciting opportunity. I have had the pleasure of dealing with the European Parliament but not so much with the Irish Parliament, so it is a particular pleasure today.

I will give a brief introductory statement. I ask the Chairman to stop me if I go on for too long.

When we look at climate change, we cannot avoid looking at energy policy because energy is the source of around 75% of the emissions that are causing climate change. This is a global figure. The percentage is slightly lower in Ireland because we have a very high share of emissions coming from agriculture. If roughly 75% of emissions is coming from energy then we cannot tackle climate change without tackling energy policy. Today we are in the midst of what is called the energy transition whereby we are changing our energy systems in Europe and globally. What does the transition actually mean? If we are to achieve the national target of 80% decarbonisation by 2050 it means that we cannot have any fossil fuels at all in our heating or transport systems, with the notable exception of aviation and possibly marine. The target is 80% rather than 100% because we are not yet sure about the possibility of electricity fuelling aeroplanes. This means that for the other sectors we are talking about a 100% ban on and elimination of fossil fuels from our energy system. That is a challenge that starts today and we need to meet it over the period up to 2050.

How do we manage this energy transition and what does it mean? There are two pillars involved, the first of which is energy efficiency. The less energy we use, the easier it is to make the change and of course, energy that is not used is free energy. The second pillar is that if we have to use energy, which we do, then we must make sure it is sustainable and renewable. These are the two pillars upon which the energy transition is built. From the perspective of making a change to our fundamental system, the first thing we must do is draw a line in the sand today and make sure that anything we do from today onwards does not make the situation worse. We must stop the leak or, as the saying goes, "If you are in a hole, stop digging".

I would like to give one or two specific examples of issues that we need to think about in the Irish context. Ireland is currently developing Part L of the building regulations which is out for consultation at the moment and included within that is the carbon performance coefficient. The figure proposed is 0.3 and at that point, one cannot use oil heating in buildings. There is a suggestion that the figure should be 0.35, which would permit oil. In fact, we should be considering 0.25. This is very technical but it illustrates an important point. The number applies to new builds. We are talking about buildings that have not been constructed yet and it is very important that we pick the right number and stop the leak in our housing stock. It is also imperative that we are fair to people, both developers and individuals, who build houses. We should not have a standard in place which means that ten years from now they are going to have to rip out their heating systems and replace them. It is important to get it right at this stage, before we go down the wrong road.

I have chosen my second example because I believe that our young people will ultimately change our society. They are the ones who will lead us in so many things and therefore, our schools are pivotal. I recently looked at technical guidance document No. 33 issued by the Department of Education and Skills in February of this year. It states that heat pumps are not appropriate for use in schools. In another paragraph, biomass is dismissed. The document basically states that the only heating systems that can be used in schools in Ireland are either oil or gas. This is for new heating systems in our schools. The document also states that where there are permitted development, PD, solar panels on the roof of a school, they must be measured to only supply the school and switch off if there is an excess because they cannot feed that excess into the grid. This is an issue that must be examined further because it relates to new investments, to money that has not yet been spent. The question to ask is whether we can spend that money in the right way rather than creating problems that will ultimately have to be rectified later on.

One of the first recommendations of the Citizen's Assembly's on climate change was for the development of supervision across Departments in order to get results. As a former civil servant, I would suggest that there is expertise in each of the Departments here. Staff know their own areas, policies and actions and the requisite knowledge exists within each Department. The challenge is to bring that knowledge to the fore and then to a common forum so that it can be maximised across that forum. If one looks at the experience in other countries, many have set up what is effectively a senior officials' group where officials at Secretary General level meet once per month on the issues of climate change and energy policy. In the case of Ireland, such a group could be chaired by the Taoiseach's Department or by the Department of Finance, with the mandate to reduce the size of the fines that may come through in 2020. It could have monthly meetings where all of the policies that are being proposed are reviewed. There must be a focus on not contradicting ourselves or going backwards and a determination to move forward on actions together. I would also suggest that a report be prepared every three months, in table format, detailing actions taken and the reduction in greenhouse gas emissions or increase in renewable energy production that will accrue from same in 2020 and thereafter. A table is all that is required, with further details to be supplied later. This must get political attention so that actions are taken, decisions are made, policies are put in place and the results can be tracked on a routine basis. It would allow something to happen immediately because it is not a new structure. It is true that it does not have statutory responsibility but with political oversight, one can achieve the same objectives very quickly without additional costs.

To go back to the two pillars of energy efficiency and renewable energy, when one talks about the former, one must talk about housing. We use a lot of energy to heat our houses in Ireland. There are almost 2 million housing units in the country and more than half of those are currently using oil for heating, which produces high levels of greenhouse gas emissions. A second notable feature is that around 70% of Irish housing units are privately owned. These are privately held assets and I emphasise this point because the retrofitting of our housing stock is an expensive exercise and it would be impossible for the Government to fund it. Even if it invested the entire budget, it is not achievable. The question then is how to get people who own a private asset to invest in that asset for their own benefit. There are various tools and techniques that one can use to do that, one of which is raising awareness. I will take an Irish example to illustrate my point. In Ireland we have the Building Energy Rating, BER, system. If one proposes to sell or even rent a house, one must have a BER certificate. When one comes to sell a property, the sale price gets recorded in the Property Price Register, PPR. However, the PPR does not actually list the BER by the sale. This is not new information but simply a question of taking two databases and merging them so that people can see the value of sales for properties with different BER ratings. Studies conducted in Europe show an uplift of between 2% and 3% per band of BER in the value of assets. Just bringing those two pieces of information together would enable people to see the difference to the value of their assets if they improve the BER. This could also be done for rental properties using the Residential Tenancies Board, RTB.

Another issue is that unless people can see, feel and touch a retrofit, it is very hard for them to get their heads around it. In this context, the Citizens' Assembly is correct that the public sector has a leading role to play in Ireland. The public sector has an objective of achieving 33% energy efficiency and many of the actors in this space are achieving those numbers. Do we have open days which allow citizens to come and see the buildings that have been retrofitted, to understand the work involved, what it cost and who carried it out? Such open days would enable people to see, feel and touch the results and prompt them to ask questions about how to undertake a retrofit themselves.

A third issue, which is strongly evident from all the studies, is that one needs to have a trusted intermediary. We have seen successes in Ireland with this. For example, the Tipperary Energy Agency, an entity set up by the local authority, is independent. People feel they can trust what it says because it does not have a commercial interest in it. Accordingly, people can rely on it and it can help them deliver. Such an opportunity exists for all local authorities for their own citizens.

Of course, the issue of finance is key and is the hardest one. We have two opportunities, a carrot or a stick. The committee has already discussed carbon tax in its previous meetings. Ultimately, a carbon tax will ultimately influence people's behaviour, even down to the level of their own home. Tax could also be used as an incentive, as it is used in other countries. The advantage of using tax as an incentive is that this is not subject to state aid.

There are other options available. If one looks at the private mortgage market and the new developments where one can get an energy efficiency mortgage add-in. For example, a house might cost €400,000 and it might cost €30,000 to energy retrofit it. If it is part of the mortgage, maybe with a deferred payment but at the same level of interest rate, it is much more attractive to do it that way than to take out a private loan at three times the interest rate.

Another area is the new renewable energy support schemes where community involvement and benefit is at the heart of it. Communities can be owners, shareholders or beneficiaries. For example, a community wind farm could have a benefit of €2 per megawatt hour generated. This works out at about €250,000 per wind turbine over 15 years. On average, a wind farm will comprise ten turbines. That results in a €2.5 million benefit to a community over 15 years. Could we leverage that revenue in order that funding could be provided to a community to retrofit their houses? That would mean the community would get a long-term benefit out of this, rather than it being dissipated on useful things but things which do not have longevity. How can this be done in a way that is constructive and brings people on board? I do not have to make the point that making all of this happen would require skills and training, as well as bringing jobs into the community.

If we are leaving fossil fuels behind, what will we use as our energy vector? Right now, we are looking primarily at electricity. We see heating, transport and power in the area of electricity. It is for the most part ubiquitous. If we can move it to renewables, it would be carbon free and available for all of the community. Technology costs are coming down. Ireland is well placed because it has good natural resources in this space. This is where Ireland can become a world leader. We have the opportunity, as well as the expertise and resources. In this transition, it is not just a shift to electricity but in the way in which we generate and use it. That brings in the whole question of the community. Communities are at the centre of this energy transition. We are moving away from large power stations, like Moneypoint, where we generate and then distribute to decentralised generation, consumption on site and sharing of that energy. That brings in the citizen and the community. That is a key part of the energy transition. It has already been reflected in the new renewable energy support schemes. It is a mechanism to allow everybody, who wants to, to participate in the energy transition.

We have some way to go. We have only one community wind farm in Ireland, Templederry, and no community solar park. In contrast, up to 1 million European citizens are party to community renewable co-operatives where their communities generate power, use it themselves, sell it to the grid and exchange it. This is the opportunity which exists. It allows people, whether they are in an urban or rural space, to participate. In Germany, for example, 50% of solar PV, photovoltaics, panel in 2012 were on farmers' barn roofs. In cities in Flanders, not only are people putting solar panels on their roofs but industry is too. Sometimes, these are rented or they will exchange on them.

Solar PV operates on the basis of light not heat. We get light in Ireland, even in the winter time. We need to move on solar generation. This is an opportunity we cannot ignore. We need it to balance wind generation. We have much wind energy production. Winds are high in the early and the later part of the year but not in the middle. That is where solar PV comes in. If one wants to get a technological balance across the year, we need to move across all of the technologies.

The Citizens' Assembly has already identified the necessity for a tariff for microgeneration, with which I fully agree. It is also important for communities. In that context, sometimes one has to follow the rabbit down the warren in terms of philosophy. We have a situation where there is community involvement in the renewable support schemes. It is good. However, one then has to peel back the layers of the onion and find out what it actually means if a community wants to generate power and make it available to the grid. In another part of the regulations, there is now a requirement for planning permission and a connection fee analysis. There may be a charge for the connection fee and sometimes one will not get access if the distribution site is full. We have to take our belief in community involvement through all of the obstacles, as well as the legislative and regulatory operational steps, in order for it to happen for citizens. For example, we may need to think of ring-fencing, say, 20% of export capacity on the grid for communities, farmers and individuals in order they can get their electricity into the system and get a benefit from it.

Another area in which we have an opportunity is offshore wind. This has been developed quite strongly in the North Sea and off the east coast of the UK. In Ireland, we have not achieved anything in that space. There is now talk about doing this. It can happen under the new renewable electricity support scheme. However, it will never happen unless we get a joined-up Government approach such as a marine spatial planning system. We need licensing and consenting procedures in order to make the connection from the offshore wind farm to land. Otherwise, the developers cannot even start work. On average, and at best, it takes six years from the time one has that in place to when the first windfarm starts to produce. If we want it, we need to have this in place very soon.

Bioenergy is a real opportunity in Ireland. We are an agricultural community. Bioenergy can have a direct impact on heating and transport. Biomethane, for example, can be incorporated in the gas system and biofuels can be incorporated in the fuel system. There is a proposal coming forward for transport of a 10% incorporation of biofuels into transport fuels. That is to meet the directive requirement of 10%. In fact, there is nothing to stop us going to 12% of 14% should we choose. It is effective in reducing greenhouse gas emissions and is quite easy to do because it is done by mandate. It is done at the oil refinery stage, meaning that one is not required to mobilise all of the citizens to do it.

It happens closer to the source. There is a cost impact, but it is quite small down the line. The same logic applies liquid energy used in heating, for example, where biofuels could be incorporated to reduce emissions. This leads me to the topic of agriculture. I will not go into detail, because the committee is going to discuss this. There is an opportunity for agriculture. Agriculture in Ireland can contribute to this energy transition, but it will need a joined-up approach from our farmers, our co-operatives and our policy framework to allow it to happen.

My last point is that we are running very close to the 2020 target. A little thing called fines may apply in the end. It is important to think about what can be done now, in the short time that is left, to mitigate the damage those fines might do. The first, simplest and easiest thing to do, at least operationally though maybe not politically, is a mandate. That will mean an instruction from the Government saying "Thou shalt do X" or "Thou shalt not do X". It can work. Overnight, plastic bags in Ireland disappeared and smoking in public places stopped. With political courage and a mandate, things can happen very quickly in a very cost-effective way. We need to look at the obstacles that prevent the individual citizen from taking action and try to remove them so that citizens can take action right now, before 2020.

For 2030 we have a target of 40% greenhouse gas emission reduction, even allowing for land use, land use change and forestry, LULUCF. This is a reality. We are not going to meet the target for 2020. Given our profile in the world and our food export industry, I do not think it is good for Ireland to continue to miss targets of that kind. It gives a very negative impression of the country to the rest of the world. We will have to do something in that context. For renewable energy the target is 32%. With cost reductions in renewable technologies they are the cheapest technologies for any new build. Gas or oil cannot beat them. There is no other technology that is cheaper than renewables for the generation of electricity. The issue is how we phase out the existing elements to change the system. A step change will probably be required in transport, as has been done in Paris. From 2030, no diesel vehicles will be able to enter Paris. In Beijing, no internal combustion engines will be on the streets from 2025. It is a decision taking effect far enough into the future for people to react, but it is a step change.

This is a long-term challenge for our buildings, but in the 2050 building roadmap we have the opportunity to set out how we would achieve that in a gradual way, phased over the period from now to 2050, so that ultimately we can build very comfortable and pleasant houses in which to live, sleep and work. I am afraid I may have gone on for a little bit too long. I thank the committee.