Mr. Seamus Maye:

I will take them in reverse order and reply to Deputy Eamon Ryan. The Public Banking Forum of Ireland was formed in 2014 and we immediately brought the Sparkasse people in Germany over here. We have produced an extensive report on creating Ireland's alternative banking force, which includes proposals for the Sparkasse to work with the credit unions and a stand alone proposal for the post offices to take the Kiwibank route. There is nothing to stop the post offices opting for the Sparkasse model as well. There are a number of options available. I was struck by the response of the establishment and the Department of Finance. We brought our report to the Department of Finance and the Department of Rural and Community Development joint consultation group and it was clear there is a mindset that we must not compete with the pillar banks. Those banks are charging us two, three, four, five and more times what our counterparts in other countries are paying, but that is the mindset. The Constitution is very clear. It says that the constant and predominant aim in what pertains to the control of credit should be the welfare of the people.

I should point out to Deputy Dooley that there is a massive, untapped indigenous economy in the agriculture, marine and other sectors, but it is dying on its feet for want of funding. What we are proposing is a no-brainer. New Zealand is a similar country to ours and, in fact, has a smaller population. It said that enough was enough and in 2002 set up the Kiwibank. I do not have the figures for what it cost to set it up but it was relatively cheap. Within 15 years it had 20% of the market. Everybody keeps asking how much it will cost to set up this new bank. It is not a great deal, somewhere between €50 million and €70 million, although we have to do more work on that. However, we must consider this in the context of the €69 billion, as mentioned by Deputy Smith, we paid to bail out banks that were operating on a criminal basis. They are still doing so. Unless and until we lose the mindset that the pillar banks come first and people do not figure at all, the social economy is not going anywhere. There is a glaring opportunity now. There is a crisis in the post offices and there is an opportunity to turn this into a thriving banking and indigenous economy. We must do it.