Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I will ask a few questions myself. I use the word "few" lightly.

I will start with the national debt. I have the report in front of me. I will ask Mr. McCarthy to confirm some information that is out there and we can comment on it. I want to give the people who are watching a full and clear picture. They get bits and pieces from different questions but I like to give the overall view.

The gross national debt at the end of 2017 was €198.7 billion, almost €200 billion. That is on page 7 of the accounts. I thank Mr. O'Kelly for the extra briefing information supplied. Essentially, we have one big problem when one looks at the chart on page 12 of the accounts where it is indicated that the percentage of our debt to GNP is quite low, at 68%, which is moving towards the EU fiscal rules target of 60%. However, everybody knows - and we have discussed it with the Department of Finance - that this is not a real measure of what happens in Ireland at all because it is totally distorted by the presence of multinationals. It is not really income to the country. We have moved on to gross national income, GNI, and now we have GNI*, which Mr. O'Kelly referenced. The gross Government debt to GNI* ratio is probably a far better indication in reality. Mr. McCarthy mentions that in the document and he shows that chart. From that perspective, there is still a worryingly high level of debt.

Even allowing for the fact that the agency uses GNI* as a measure, although it is helpful to use both such measures, the national debt is still at a very worrying level. Is that a fair comment?