Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I thank both witnesses for their presentation.

It is important that it is made at this stage and that members hear exactly how horrific the conditions are. We have heard it before. We have supported Médecins Sans Frontières's actions. I wish Mr. Taylor well.

Hopefully, NGOs will be allowed to be back at sea to rescue people. That is the genuine feeling of most Irish people. Whether they agree or disagree with the European Union, there was a presumption before Ireland signed up to Operation Sophia that we were involved in a humanitarian mission in the Mediterranean. I have become increasingly concerned, on questioning the Minister of State at the Department of Defence and even with some of the briefings, that the concentration has shifted totally from an Irish point of view to other actions under Operation Sophia and that, as we warned, it is neither a search and rescue mission nor a humanitarian mission any more. If so, what is it other than the security of Europe?

Only yesterday, I received answers back from the Minister of State in respect of future funding on defence in Europe where he outlined an extra €13 billion to be spent between now and 2027 on the European Defence Fund. In the middle of it, there was an extra €6.5 billion on transport to make the roads and transport networks in the European Union better for military transport or mobility. This is in contrast with what we spend on what MSF referred to - refugee camps in areas of conflict that can protect people and then try to rebuild their lives in their own countries. From having spoken to a number of refugees over the years who managed to come as far as Ireland and make good here, I know they never wanted to be in Ireland. They did not know half of the time whether they were coming here. They still do not like the weather, even if it is gorgeous at present. They would prefer to be at home in their own community.

What is it that makes people take this arduous journey? I presume at this stage word is filtering back of the dangers that are faced and that those taken at sea will be sent back to torture camps in Tripoli. Is Tripoli or any other port regarded by the NGOs as a safe port in any way? We have had testimony previously about what is ongoing in some of those camps. Is there much information other than that from the refugees one meets coming from Libya? What are we hearing back? Mr. Taylor gave a number of examples and what is going on is quite obscene. Ireland or the European Union can be seen to be facilitating that by returning refugees to those dangers.

I read in The Guardianthe figures on the number of people who have lost their lives recently and Mr. Taylor repeated them. Does Mr. Taylor believe the absence of NGO ships at sea contributes to the increased deaths? Mr. Taylor stated the death toll has gone up substantially in recent times. Is it that refugees are taking a more arduous journey or are at sea longer? Are the boats in which they set out in worse condition? If the NGO ships that were there previously were at sea, would they have the capacity to help in any way beyond what they have done previously?

Finally, given what happened in recent weeks, if NGOs get to take to sea again and if the Italians and the European Union continue their policy, I presume it would be much more costly, or probably more dangerous for MSF ships to have to go to other ports in Europe if they are sitting in the middle of the Mediterranean on low supplies trying to figure out where the hell they will go with these refugees to give them some type of comfort and humanity and to avoid facing the torture they fear they would face, were they to get caught and brought back to the Libyan coastguard.