John Dolan (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister for Health and the teams that are present. I have four questions. The first one is on the funding that organisations get. Many organisations are almost 100% funded. My point is that a culture can develop of "We are paying you and we own you". That is putting it very bluntly. I thank the Minister for his earlier reply. I asked a question about the protocols and steps that are in place within in the HSE to mitigate the risk of that to which I refer happening. Is there full governance respect for organisations with which the HSE has service level agreements?

The reply set out many of the things relating to legal contracts and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform statement and circular. I do not get a reassurance or a sense that the response has struggled with the question of what protocols are in place to protect against that happening. I will leave it at that. However, I am in close contact with the organisations and I know that when they read this, they will not feel reassured by it. They will say that they know there are service level agreements and so forth but that is about compliance and the sense that there is a lived respect for the autonomy of the organisations. As charities, they are public benefit organisations and they are first cousins to their public sector counterparts. However, the attitude is, "Look, you are getting the money from us and whatever". It is a quandary but I would like the Minister and his Department to respond further on this.

My next question relates to employment retention. I am very annoyed about this and about the section 38 and section 39 organisations. The Department and the HSE knew about this issue well over a year ago when the organisations were trotting to the Workplace Relations Commission one by one. Union representatives were there sitting beside the employers and the question being asked was, "Where is the money?". There is an issue, and on some occasions the HSE was dragged into some of those discussions. I raised this matter a year ago at this committee and I also raised it in the Seanad with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, at the same time. Last January, we received confirmation that an exercise was being undertaken by the HSE with a number of the organisations. What is the current position and will there soon be a satisfactory solution? The only figure I have been given is that 50 of the grant-aided organisations are involved. A questionnaire was sent out to the organisations and it was to be returned by the end of March, which is six weeks ago. What is happening now? When will the exercise be concluded?

The core issue is that I can name two organisations, one a section 38 organisation and one a section 39 organisation, that are working in the same county and with the same client group. As regards section 38 organisations being different from section 39 organisations, they are in the way they are constructed under the Act but it is very hard to see a difference in the way they are providing services and support. One of the organisations I mentioned is now acting as a cheap recruiter and trainer for the other and the staff are being churned and moved around. This must be resolved. I am getting a strong sense of it being put on the long finger and I am not happy about that.

My next question relates to personal assistance. The Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, and I have had the abacus out on a number of occasions to break down the hours and so forth. The HSE is clearly stating what was a matter of fact - from the figures it had in any event - which is that the average number of hours per week is less than 12. That is an average of one hour and 42 minutes per day. The definition we have been given is that the role of the personal assistant is to assist an individual with a disability to maximise his or her independence through supporting him or her to live in an integrated setting and to access community facilities.