Mr. Declan Carlyle:

I was not there in 2009. I have read all those papers. There were large volumes of them. A position paper did not conclude that the board should not pay 3.6 or 2.6. The board engaged with the staff and the trade unions to negotiate a solution. Ultimately, when pay awards were not pensionable and no pension increases were granted, the certified statement from the actuary, which are included with the company's replies to parliamentary questions, stated they should 2.8 and 2.3 times, which are required under the statutory instruments which have not changed since 2004.