Dr. Katriona O'Sullivan:

I will respond to a few points made by Deputy O'Sullivan. In response to the Deputy's question as to what we can change to help the groups in question, I made a note that we must make higher education, further education, school, community education and informal education more accessible for people, whether in terms of travel, grades, online grades or physical access, and we must make education affordable. In the case of the back to education programme, I wrote a document today in which I beg that students who are emerging from the leaving certificate applied programme and need to enter an access programme be given back to education support in a university access programme. The reason is that the applied programme is not recognised under the back to education programme as a further education course. While we may argue that the programme has benefits, they are extremely nuanced, complex and difficult to access. We can have all the services we want but if somebody decides to change his or her life, we must be able to tell that person how it can be done and provide the money to support this decision.

People say there is no representative voice here. I am a representative voice. I grew up in a household that had nothing and I spent half my childhood visiting my dad in prison. I am an early school leaver like all my family and my brother was imprisoned. I could tell a sob story for hours but I am a voice. I did not choose to go on in education because I did not have money or it was not accessible but because I did not know anyone else who had gone further and the option was not sold to me by anyone. I was pushed to the back of the classroom because I was noisy and loud and told to told to shut up and be quiet and not to argue about the rules. Many interventions could and did happen but the pivotal factor for me and many others is to have a meaningful relationship with an older person, either someone from one's community who has been successful - a mentor or role model who has been celebrated - or a teacher.

In the system we have at the moment, we do not recruit teachers for their love of the subject, or at least not all teachers. Much of the time, teachers graduate with a maths or an English degree, wonder where they can work and decide to use their qualification in education. I am not slagging all teachers off, because I love teachers. My role at the moment is to diversify education. However, having meaningful access to role models in our communities is most important, because that is the step up. There are many programmes that do this. It is not reinventing the wheel.

Reference was made to the Delivering Equality of Opportunities in Schools, DEIS, scheme. I do not think we should cut the DEIS scheme. That is not what I am saying. The DEIS scheme should be extended. I would not call it DEIS, because the word "disadvantage" is awful. I would incentivise schools and call them "schools of distinction", because they are succeeding in a system in which they are placed right at the back. They are losing the race before they have even started it. I would flip the whole concept of DEIS if I had the opportunity. It would still have the same resources and support, but I would add leadership and governance. At this point, schools are autonomous within the terms of the DEIS plan. They are allowed to make their own plans and decide what steps to implement, and at the end of the year they are assessed on what they have implemented. Instead, the schools should be presented with a list of activities that are proven to work, as manifested in retentions, academic attainment, progression, and any other measure the Government wants to target. If a school is suffering or not performing in these areas, management should be asked which of these initiatives to implement. Schools should be offered more financial support and whatever else they need to implement those schemes. My proposal is not to scrap DEIS, but rather to extend it.

A speaker referred to the stated views of teachers. Where is the research on that element? We assess DEIS in terms of literacy and maths. Why not ask the children and get their reaction on record? Are children saying that being at school makes them feel better? That is an important message too.