Mr. Conor Skehan:

I will first answer the Chairman's questions, after which I will respond to Deputies Ó Broin and Barry in that order. To start at the beginning, the work of the Housing Agency with the approved housing bodies and local authorities extends across a broad spectrum. It runs from giving them research, which we heard about, to providing practical supports. For instance, when the housing assistance payment, HAP, was introduced, we worked closely with the local authorities, starting in Limerick city, followed by Limerick county and so forth, as we sought to find out the flaws in the system, correct these flaws and move forward. Incidentally, the introduction of the HAP was a very good model for introducing any new process provided for in legislation. Under this model, it is not assumed that everything will be perfect from day one. Instead, the system is rolled out gradually and the problems with it are identified before it is extended. This means when it hits a place the size of Dublin, many of the issues that need to be resolved have been identified, although the system will still not be perfect. That is the type of role the Housing Agency adopted and we worked very closely with the local authorities in that regard.

In terms of our work with the local authorities and approved housing bodies, we also work at the financing end by helping to secure financing and helping local authorities with sites they may have acquired. We look after these sites with the local authorities and approved housing bodies.

I probably do not have to say this but much of the stuff that makes a difference in housing involves boring work in which no one is interested, for example, the regulation of approved housing bodies. One of the major problems these bodies face in accessing international finance is being able to show they are monitored and supervised. This involved the tedious and bureaucratic task of introducing a whole system of regulation, registration, inspection, monitoring and certification of approved housing bodies. This task, which has been completed, is the type of work we do. We help these bodies with direct money and advice and also provide subtle infrastructural work. The work of the joint committee also includes ensuring that this type of slow background work is done. The data gathering that I repeatedly refer to is part of this.

The city manager in Dublin uses a great phrase drawn from the social sciences to draw attention to this issue. He refers to housing as "a wicked problem". In this context, the word "wicked" does not have the same meaning as it does when used by people in Dublin. It refers to an issue that has many intertwined parts and a change in one affect all the others. Unfortunately for the joint committee, its remit is to deal with this incredibly complex mix of issues, all of which - data, regulation, social attitudes, social expectations and national policy - come together, and as each one changes, it has an effect on all the others. We are trying to deal with these.

In terms of each of the systems, to return to the mortgage to rent scheme, the complexity of housing and the variety of expectations and demands are so vast that there is a major lesson to be learned. This ties back into Deputy Ó Broin's question on the three major strands of housing provision, namely, direct provision, the housing assistant payment and the rental accommodation scheme, and people float in and out between these strands. The issue is that something like this is prone to being exploited. Deputy Ó Broin is absolutely right that we have to continue to look at the big picture and we must not fool ourselves or be complacent by saying, for instance, the housing list is reducing while ignoring an increase elsewhere.

The housing assistant payment and rental accommodation scheme may be in place for other reasons. Deputies from rural areas will know that the housing assistance payment is not always for an apartment or a house in an estate. Many houses in rural areas are paid for by housing assistance payments for reasons to do with communities and what people want or do not want to do in terms of admitting their financial status. Such people will avail of the HAP. This is a highly complex issue covering a very wide range of areas.

I will speed up at little as I note it is 4.30 p.m. I do not want to get between members and the end of their day, although I can come back with more detail. Deputy Ó Broin's point about the complexity and overlap of the three strands is absolutely correct. To amplify the Deputy's point, the work the joint committee is doing on Focus Ireland is exactly the type of work that needs to be done. This complexity means realising that somebody who has eventually reached the point of presentation, if I can use that word, may have had a problem in his or her family because he or she may have been moved previously to unsuitable accommodation, for example, accommodation that was not large enough. This places stress on a family. The question is whether this is a fair summary of what can sometimes happen and it results in people being pushed in and there is then a cascade. We need to do that type of work.

We will agree to disagree that the reasons for homelessness in the Eastern Region Homeless Executive studies go into flux and change from time to time. All of these data are like something one would write on water in that they change all the time. For this reason, it is not good enough to do studies once. The Deputy is right about the need to ask the agency to do a further study because these studies need to be done repeatedly. We will never arrive at the point at which the data are perfect and allow us to make perfect decisions. While Deputy Ó Broin is dead right that we must be led by evidence, it is also the case that the evidence will never give us all the answers.

Deputy Cowen is also dead right that international comparisons will always change and be in flux. We can only do our best by trying to run to catch up with the data. We will always be behind the data, however. To go back to the international housing comparisons, people had a field day saying they were based on out-of-date information. The information is out of date because it is based on census data which covers the period from 2011 to 2016 or whatever. This means one will always be running to catch up with census data. This is normal and tough and we must make brave decisions based on the best data available to us.

Deputy Ó Broin asked whether a further study should be called for.