Colm Burke (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank all the organisations which are working in this area. There is a huge commitment by staff. In many cases it is quite a demanding job, and it is important that we recognise that.

Many of the issues I want to raise have already been raised. My question concerns the operations of the HSE. Last year it took me six months to establish that the HSE had taken on an additional 2,000 administration and managerial staff from December 2014 to April 2017. I have made a very conservative calculation of the cost of that. It equates to approximately €80 million. At any stage from 2013 onwards, was any suggestion of a pro rata increase made by the unions to the HSE? I have no difficulty with increasing administration staff numbers. I am talking about an increase in administration staff numbers from 15,000 to 17,000. Were there any discussions, at any time, of a pro rata increase in administrative staff at the same time that people in section 39 organisations would get their increase?

No one has given me the answer as to who authorised the additional 2,000 administration and management staff, while those at the coal face - I mean section 39 workers - were left without any consideration been given to having their pay restored. This goes back to the HSE, the Department of Health and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Was it ever raised in the discussions? Some 2,000 staff did not suddenly appear overnight, rather it happened over a period. The argument used by the HSE was related to restoring the same staff levels as in 2010, but that does not take into account the fact that Tusla was established and took staff from the HSE. The figure of €80 million is very conservative for the additional staff employed. Whether we could have had pro rataincreases, we could have had an increase in administration and management staff and still looked after the section 39 organisations, albeit not to the same scale.

Many organisations have told me about the turnover of staff that is a consequence of changing circumstances. The situation where there are more jobs available than people cuts across various sectors outside health care. Is something else required in addition to pay increases in order to retain staff? It is a very demanding job. I raised this issue in private session as it pertained to another area. The work done by section 39 organisations is very demanding and can be extremely stressful because of this. Should we look at other issues to provide staff with support, in addition to pay restoration? That would allow continuity and provide for the delivery of services without staff only staying for six, 12 or 18 months before moving on. I accept what the delegates have said that if there were better conditions in a section 38 organisation or the HSE, people would not move, but are there other issues we should consider also? I recognise that the principal issue is pay, but there may be other matters that should be considered. Some 12,000 people were referred to. They make a huge commitment. I have seen the work these organisations do and the demands put on them. The increase in staff employed in back offices but not on the front line is an important issue. Has it been raised? Will we continue to see a similar increase in administration and management staff without looking after those who work in section 39 organisations?