John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I want to intervene here because I do not want to lose the point made by Senator Burke. The Governor said that the Central Bank had been active on this since autumn 2008. The reason I want to pick up on this is because the committee sent the Central Bank the correspondence from Deputy Jim Daly. If the Governor read that correspondence, and I take it that he has, it is clear that the Deputy was raising the tracker mortgage issue. He may not have understood at the time how deep the issue ran within the banks but he certainly was trying to uncover what he saw as an issue. The banks ducked and dived their way through that correspondence. That is absolutely clear so that means that the banks with which the Central Bank was dealing were hoodwinking it. They were presenting information, and they knew what the Deputy was after. He was discussing tracker mortgages. He may have been talking about tracker mortgages in arrears but the banks were not prepared to divulge the information they knew about at the time, which, essentially, is the issue we are confronting today.

That leads me to Senator Burke's question about culture because the issue of culture lies within that reply from the Central Bank regarding Deputy Jim Daly's query and dating back to the autumn of 2008. When the Central Bank investigates the banks relative to their culture, I hope it has a big mirror into which it will look because the language in the Governor's opening remarks is different. It is stronger. Deputy McGrath rightly underlines the phrase "you haul them in" - the Central Bank will hold individuals accountable. It is about time the Central Bank said it. I do not want it to get into a comfort zone here where it is plámásed by Deputies McGrath or Doherty and told it is doing well. I will not judge the Central Bank on its language. I will judge it on the action it is prepared to take on behalf of the customers who have been robbed by the banks and whose lives have been devastated. The Central Bank is coming some of the way and regardless of whether it was this committee or someone else who dragged it to this point, it is not there yet as a regulator in my opinion. Let us see how it all works out. The culture within the banks must change. From my experience of the banks to date, I must say that this culture is as embedded as ever. What we are seeing is not a culture change.

It is a combined effort on the part of the banks to provide the appropriate smoke-screen until they can get beyond this. I am sorry for going on but I want to explain this to Professor Lane. The reason I am saying this is because the Central Bank is concentrating on the tracker mortgage issue. It is now looking at the culture. While it is doing so, the next generation of bankers is being educated by the vulture fund managers, such as Capita and others, on how to deal with customers. My experience, and the experience of Members of these Houses who have come to me, indicates that those fund managers or agents are enhancing that culture which makes the customer pay. When Professor Lane refers to them improving and doing things better, they are improving at doing the customer. That is to say, they are robbing them better.

Capita is the leader in this regard in terms of its aggressive approach, in terms of making the customer jump every time it asks and in terms of disimproving the mental health and well-being of people. It refuses to give information and has often asked Members of these Houses to leave its offices. I attended Capita meetings. I have said this here before but I want to make it absolutely clear. Capita is a regulated entity and has refused to come before this committee. It has said directly to me or to customers in front of me that they should get the money they owe from their mothers, fathers, neighbours, friends or the credit union, as long as they give it the money. It just wants the money. Its attitude is shocking to such a degree that no country, parliament or society should accept it. Professor Lane's organisation regulates Capita.

This has to do with trackers because it is all mixed up - the SMEs, the trackers and everything else. Arising from what Senator Paddy Burke said, I want to tell Mr. Lane that culture is alive and well and Capita and others continue to educate people in it so that its life will continue beyond the smoke and mirrors which the banks are presenting. What will Professor Lane do to ensure that Capita and others come before the Houses of the people to be held accountable? We represent the people. What can he do to ensure that the vulture funds adhere to the original conditions of the lender? They are blackguarding people up and down this country.