Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I have a few questions I want to put as we draw to a conclusion. I thank the witnesses for the document they sent to us, entitled "Supplementary Welfare Allowance 2016 Fraud & Error Survey". It seems to be a case of "Here we go again".

I want Mr. McKeon to define what he calls fraud. I would have thought fraud was a criminal offence, but the only person who can call it that is a judge. He has used phrases which no public servant has the right to use. He referred to customer fraud, looking at a document and customer error. He gave us a definition of the Act and there are three subsections relating to fraud stating that it has to be wilful. For Mr. McKeon to come to a conclusion that fraud has taken place, he has to be in the mind of the person concerned to know whether what happened was wilful. He used the word earlier and we know it is in the system.

The only person who can come to a conclusion in regard to the establishment of fraud which is criminal is a judge. I respectfully suggest that nobody in the Department has the right to use that phrase. They might believe something is a suspected fraud. As a layman, I believe only a judge can decide whether something is fraud.

Reference was made to error. We will separate the issues. It gives everything a bad name. I want to compliment the tone of Mr. McKeon's opening remark and his understanding for the people he deals with on an ongoing basis in terms of making sure they are all right. It is possible that 2% of people are making claims for payments to which they are not fully entitled. This is a result of a variety of issues, including fraud, error on the part of the Department or a death following which it takes a number of weeks for a payment to the person to cease in the system. There is usually a clawback against the estate of the deceased. Some errors may take place because people did not telephone the Department on the day their mother died to advise it to stop payment. These things can take time.

I want Mr. McKeon to talk to me about the word "fraud". It is great for some people to categorise other people in receipt of social welfare as engaging in fraud. That probably does happen sometimes. I ask Mr. McKeon to talk to me about his use of the word "fraud" and what I would call suspected fraud. The relevant Act referred to contains the term "wilful". How can one read people's minds, come to a conclusion and categorise what has happened as fraud? I would like Mr. McKeon to change his language. I am upfront. I would like the language throughout the system to change.