Dr. Katriona O'Sullivan:

With regard to case workers, in my new job in Maynooth we are creating a programme, the turn to teaching project, which is funded by the Government. It recognises we do not have enough diversity in the classroom. There are not enough teachers from DEIS backgrounds teaching children from DEIS backgrounds. It has been recognised that it is very important to have exposure to one's own people in various professions to move into those professions. My colleague, who started at the same time as me, would describe himself as being from a very middle-class background. He is a primary school teacher. Yesterday, when we were speaking, he said he did not know about my people. He was very frank. He said he does not understand why DEIS schools do not just improve Irish. I told him I was really glad he said that and that we should go visit a few DEIS schools where we can meet the children and they can tell us why they will not do Irish and why it will not happen.

Part of case workers' training should be to have not just a module on equality but actual meaningful engagement with the people with whom they will work in order that they understand the challenges fully before they become case workers. It is the same with regard to teachers. Nordic models require this for people in a service position. People there will not get a job as a case worker unless they demonstrate clear understanding, empathy and an ability to relate. This is something we can think about with regard to case workers.

I am not criticising case workers. I genuinely think the majority of people going to these jobs do so because they want to make a difference but sometimes they just do not know how and without an understanding, it can be harsh. My suggestion for case workers is to immerse them in the community in order that they understand the challenges because they are very complex. It is not the case that someone is not motivated to work and that he or should been made to work. We can see people do not move into employment generally when they are told they have to.

The issue of pathways is complicated. There is a lack of trust in people and certain groups. There is an idea people need to be monitored or shepherded. I query this in some ways. I query the mindset that we need to shepherd people in a particular way because otherwise they would be crazy and ruin society. We have spoken about access to access. Long-term unemployment is nuanced. Long-term unemployed is not caused by the same reason for everybody. From 2008, carpenters, builders or blocklayers might have been unemployed for three years because there were no jobs for them. They are not the same as prisoners who think they could earn more money by doing something else. There is a difference. We need to think about the nuance of unemployment and long-term unemployment and how we tackle it. A builder is probably easier to deal with. He would probably need options to change his life if he wants to because he was probably put on that track but that is a different story.

With regard to access to access education, we need to have targeted programmes for specific hard-to-reach groups. We have a number of communities in Ireland where we know unemployment is high. These include Tallaght and Dublin 1. Unemployment is high and progression to third level and higher education is low and has remained below the national targets for 30 years. We need to ask what is the need of this community and how do we develop access to access or an access to work programme that is specific to the challenges they face. It is similar for lone parents. They lack child care and motivation. Prisoners are defiant sometimes and might have problems with authority. They might not have role models. Access to access in work and education is good but it needs to be nuanced and there needs to be central well-being, personal development and guidance elements. We have spoken about this. I have written a programme if anyone wants to fund it.