Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I understand the frustration that Deputy Eamon Ryan is bringing to the table, but he is probably slightly wrong in what he is saying. We had a conversation about this plan but Deputy Ryan was out of the room for most of the discussion we have had thus far.

This plan is about setting out the plan, ambition and business case. If we do not do that, we will not win any investment. It is not a matter for the budget or to change to the political system. It is about setting out where all of us collectively have come together in recent years with the plan. Deputy Ryan bought into that process at an earlier stage. If he believes in it, I appeal to him to stick with it and finish it out, because the plan is not finished yet. Only then will we see the direction in budgets and the direction with resources from the State. The ten-year capital investment plan is not published yet. It will be published in conjunction with this; when this is finished, it will be finished. I appeal to Deputy Ryan to reserve his judgment until that stage.

I understand Deputy Ryan's frustration and I accept all of that because I know he genuinely believes in what we are trying to achieve, but I would not call this waffle. If we do not go through this process, then we cannot achieve what Deputy Ryan wants to achieve. He should bear that in mind. We will have the publication of this and the ten-year plan, hopefully, in December this year. Then we will be able to see what we think of it. This is about trying to win investment in sustainable planning and investment in transport. Such investment might not have been in place in the past at the level Deputy Ryan sought – I understand that. However, this is trying to change the direction. It will not happen in one budget. It will take a number of budgets. That is why this is a 25-year plan to set the course and direction of the country. We have had a conversation with Deputy Ryan's colleagues about trying to re-invest in towns and villages, urban renewal and invest in transport and energy. That is what we are trying to do. It involves a climate mitigation plan as well. It is about bringing it all together to make it happen.

Deputy Ryan referred to the political system making this happen. We all accept that plans in the past were not always followed up. However, I believe Deputy Ryan has seen a demonstration in recent years of how Governments do follow-up on plans and implement then. It does not matter whether we are discussing housing, jobs or rural action plans. At times they are box-ticking exercises, but it is important to go through that. We need to be able to say we have done a specific action and then move to the next one. The idea is to stick to the plan and follow through. We have a proven track record of doing that. I have more belief than Deputy Ryan in the future of this plan. We will see the first step in the weeks ahead.

Deputy Ryan referred to particular issues. I gather he does not disagree with our targets, but he is not hopeful that we will implement them. We can go back to the specific targets if Deputy Ryan wishes and my colleagues may come in at that point.

Deputy Ryan referred to the consultation process. All the regions and local authorities and anyone else interested have had a role in feeding in to this plan. There has been any amount of consultation, and it has happened in a more formal way in the past year. Again, we are not finished. There are some more weeks of consultation – the period runs to 3 November. There is still time for anyone else to have talks. That is why we are here today - we are here to listen. Senator Grace O'Sullivan referred to ambition. We can look at whether we are driving it enough and we can talk about that again.

Deputy Ryan referred to the political system. Again, this plan does not dictate the political system. The Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy John Paul Phelan, is bringing a document to Cabinet shortly around the future of local government, a review of the changes we have made and any recommended changes for the future. I disagree with Deputy Ryan. I believe the municipal areas are working well. I have been a councillor and I have worked in a town where there was a cross-over of local authority boundaries and town council boundaries. It did not always lead to quality or effective decision-making – there were delays. Some town councils have done great work and the involvement of councillors is still needed, but there is duplication. Often, councillors cover different boundaries and as a result we get slower decision making. The system can play parties off against each other and that does not work either. The plan refers to areas where there are boundaries and bringing together integrated plans that cover various council boundaries. That is clever thinking and that is the way it should be done. The political system has to match that.

I disagree with Deputy Ryan's view that the regional and local authorities are not in a position to deal with this – they are. They have been consulted. After this national ambition is put out, we will have regional and local development strategies which will bring on the implementation. I believe the system can work and will work. We will review it, though, because I recognise that some of the municipal areas are large and in some cases it is difficult for councils to cover a great deal of ground. It depends on the location of a council. If a council is in Mayo, it can be difficult. Kerry is a wide area to cover. The councils have a great deal of work to do. We will make changes to that if necessary. However, that does not mean the whole system is wrong. I believe municipal areas can work well too.