Chairman:

The Minister has a number of issues to deal with that colleagues have raised. I reiterate the point that in relation to the restructuring of MABS in particular, there are bundles and bundles of documents - I have no doubt the Minister and her Department officials have them - but one of the key points that comes across as being the core of the problem is the consultation aspect. There were meetings and minutes and attendees of meetings and so on, but those meetings did not constitute proper consultation in advance of the decision. In actual fact, if anything, the decision was hurried as the committee began its deliberations and work. The real engagement is now about process, not about what a new programme should have been. The people who attended the meetings, and who were supposed to be the representatives of the various organisations, have stated categorically to the committee that they were not entitled to discuss the contents of the meetings they were at. There was no evidence of real and meaningful discussions and contributions in advance of the decision being made. That was the frustration the committee found. The Minister is quite right in acknowledging that meetings are now going on, but they are about implementation rather than about deciding upon a new programme. That is the kernel of what is going on here. We could find no support for the view that the consultations were meaningful. Person after person who appeared before the committee was of that opinion. I know others have raised the issue of MABS, but I want to be clear on what was presented.