Dr. Geoffrey Shannon:

On the omission of 31 instances, the issue is accountability. If we are not accurately documenting what is on the PULSE system and if we do not record the incident as it occurs, that raises questions as to whether we have sufficient transparency and accountability. What I believe may have happened is that these instances were filed elsewhere. However, the reality is that there is not a proper paper record. I agree with the point made by Deputy O'Callaghan, namely, when this power is exercised, there needs to be a paper trail. It caused me concern that there was not a proper paper trail for those 31 instances. I have been given explanations. However, I come from the show me the data school rather than the explanation. I have been told that perhaps these ended up being filed elsewhere. However, with such an exceptional power being exercised by the State, unless there is a comprehensive paper trail as to why it was used, then it raises significant issues.

That is why we need a PULSE system that accurately records the narrative for every child in a consistent fashion. It is just not a case of it being recorded in one area but consistently throughout the country. That ties into the training of gardaí on how to enter data into the PULSE system and ensuring consistency in how those narratives are entered in respect of all cases.

In respect of the lessons to be learned, it comes back to training. The audit found training was inadequate. Unless we have proper training on the issue of child protection and the threshold required to exercise those powers in section 12, then it is going to be extremely problematic. That is something on which we are going to have to redouble our efforts.

I absolutely agree with the Deputy on placing children in a police station or in a hospital. Children associate police stations with having done something wrong and criminality. That is not to take away from the fact that the gardaí who exercised these powers were enormously compassionate. I was really struck by their sense of public service.

Gardaí see themselves as first responders and they displayed a degree of humanity which was hugely impressive.

A hospital bed is no place for a child to be placed. We talk at the moment about having a health crisis yet we are placing children in valuable hospital beds which are needed by people who are genuinely sick. We need to look at that issue again. Children associate hospitals with being sick and that has a detrimental effect. We had a lengthy discussion on this with the psychiatrist, Dr. Imelda Ryan, who is very experienced in this area. Her view is that this is a hugely traumatic incident. It is not just the legal issue. Sometimes we get paralysed by talking about the legal niceties, but this has a huge human cost for children. When one takes a child in such traumatic circumstances, the consequences may not only be short term but may in fact be long-term in effect. That is why we need to come up with a new model.

There are a number of models we could follow. I mentioned three. There is the role model in the North, the MASH model in Oxfordshire and Manchester, and the Bronx model of child advocacy centres where everybody works together and the child is taken to a very child-friendly place. I have seen these centres where one has a room that is child friendly and very different from a police station where one has prisoner traffic coming through. We need a neutral venue. The member raised some interesting suggestions around family resource centres. Even the Tusla main office could have a very nice child-friendly room to which one could take a child. It is not beyond us or something that requires the expenditure of a huge amount of money but it would make a real difference for children.

The graphs demonstrate that children can end up spending significant periods of time in these settings. When I travelled to one of the rural stations, a garda told me that when the child was subject to section 12, he ended up having to travel with his colleague because one has to travel with another person. We must look at the consequences of that for policing. If it is a small rural station and two gardaí have to travel with the child, something has to suffer. That may very well be that there will not be a checkpoint that evening. It is something that has a knock-on effect elsewhere. Using gardaí to perform a child protection function is not without consequences. It impacts on other areas of policing. Sometimes we forget that.

The issue the member raised around getting a call on a Friday evening is a worrying one. It emerged in the case that a garda got a call at 4.45 p.m. on a Friday to be told a child needed to be cared for. We must be careful here. We do not know and need a complete audit to know why that happened. If it is a child protection issue which has been festering during the week, it should be dealt with as a child protection issue. We have a child protection system under the Child Care Act which means that if one is concerned, one seeks a number of more proportionate orders, including a supervision order. One can apply to the District Court for a supervision order or, if one is sufficiently concerned, an interim care order followed by a care order. We must ensure that due process is followed and that child protection issues are dealt with in a child protection context. That means action occurs in a child protection case when the threshold is reached. That will need to be monitored.

In terms of implementation, I have been told by members of An Garda Síochána that the recommendations have been fully accepted. My understanding is that an implementation plan exists but I have not seen it. That is all I can say.