David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

It would be helpful if the witnesses could furnish this committee with examples of what they have sought and what they have achieved as well as examples of changes which were sought but not achieved. That would be helpful. Mr. McCarthy offered up a staunch defence of the fiscal rules a number of times. That is fair enough. He also spoke a number of times about the economic crash and said that the reason it occurred was because we did not have rules to the extent that we do now.

We need to bring a big elephant into the room, and park it there, in terms of the reason for the crash. In the first instance, there was an over-reliance on consumption taxes. There was excessive commercial borrowing and excessive lending by the banks which led to the crash. The Department of Finance, the people who in the past sat where Mr. McCarthy and Mr. Moran sit now, were also asleep at the wheel and did not see any of the flags. Let us be realistic when Mr. McCarthy throws this issue back at us in respect of the crash. We understand there was a crash. The people we represent suffered greatly because of it. The Department of Finance, however, needs to take responsibility for having been partly responsible for a lot of the policy decisions and their implementation. Does Mr. Moran think it is possible that in making sure that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past that we are now going too far in the opposite direction? Are we restricting spending to the extent that we are creating pressures in health, housing and infrastructure? Everybody accepts that these pressures are there. Does he understand how difficult it is for us as public representatives to see these huge pressures in public services? They are obvious and real. They are not imagined. Yet all we hear is that academic, economic language about the fiscal rules, which may or may not be appropriate. A debate can be had on them. Mr. Moran can imagine our frustration. That is why I am asking this question.

The Minister has said today that the fiscal rules which currently exist are not fit for purpose because of the demographic pressures in this State. For once I agree with the Minister for Finance. Changes need to be made. What work has Mr. Moran and his Department done specfically up to now to make sure that we can get the changes we need to allow us to spend money - not unrealistically or recklessly - in the way that is necessary to ensure that the people who need health care get health care and that the people who need a roof over their head get a roof over their head? Will Mr. Moran point out to me, in simple language, what changes to the fiscal rules he and his Department have sought but not gotten?