Mr. Ethan Gutmann:

The last question is one which has arisen several times. There is much misinformation on this globally and this has been something that the Chinese state has encouraged. There is much talk about organ brokers and the shadowy criminal network operating in this area. There is one, and it is called the Internet. It is that simple. If members do not believe me, they can go onto the Internet, type "help, I need a liver" in Google and within the first 20 response they will find a website which changes constantly, but is always there, and which has a discussion board involving people who have had transplants or are looking to have one. Very quickly, one will find advice that a person can go to Tianjin central. That is not surprising because the Chinese were advertising Tianjin central on the web for years. They only stopped in 2014 because it became such a major issue and it was a huge embarrassment that this advertisement was up there.

We estimate that Tianjin Central hospital does over 5,000 transplants each year. This is half of what the Chinese claim they do annually, in just one hospital. They speak English. Everyone will say that and the message board is one of two sources that one will find this information. It is that simple. If one can come up with the money, they can secure the transplant in record time. In other countries, one can find kidneys because people will sell a single kidney but it is only in China where they can come up with a liver. It has been documented in around 25 cases that it can be done within four hours. No one can live without a liver and there is no way to come up with a liver unless one has a living human being, or should I say, a huge stable of living human beings, where they have all been tissue matched, are ready to go and someone can come in and get that organ within several hours. The warm ischemia time, the time when an organ is being transferred from one person to another, is estimated to be two minutes or zero in most cases of these emergency liver transplants.

This is more evidence of something the committee has heard from Dr. Enver Thohti Bughda, that this is done while people are alive. There is not a huge mystery about organ tourism; it is an intentional piece of monkey dust which the Chinese have thrown up about this. I do not doubt that one can go to Egypt and get a kidney. I do not doubt that there are several countries in the world where one can do that but there are only two countries that harvest political and religious prisoners and they are the People's Republic of China and ISIS. I do not recommend the hotel facilities in Syria right now. It is true that there is a bigger problem overall, but this goes beyond it. We are not merely looking at Falun Gong but Uyghurs, Tibetans, and House Christians. The Uyghurs may be coming online with DNA testing, which is also tissue matching testing, but it has dual purpose. It tells us that the Uyghur population, the Muslims of China, are suddenly under great threat when millions of them have been DNA tested. The Chinese say it is for their health but we cannot believe that. There may be many purposes, and we can discuss that further, but there is no question that there are still prisoners who are being harvested for their organs.

We do not know the exact percentages but anyone who has been close to the data in the way that myself, David Matas and David Kilgour have, has concluded that they are mainly prisoners of conscience. They are often arrested without any due process whatever. They cannot be charged with any capital crimes and in the case of Falun Gong they are absolutely non-violent. Often, they are people who are not even on the books and are being put to death. This is where this huge pool of organs is coming from. I would like to say that this is science fiction but I was here in 2013 and I am afraid that the evidence has become exponentially worse and more explicit since then and that is why we are starting to see the reaction.