Dr. Geoffrey Shannon:

I thank the Deputy. On the question about the follow-through of section 13, I can say publicly that I have framed a proposal on this. I am not sure what the Minister's intentions are on this and this committee will have to ask about that. I have about as much information as the members do. The press release states that "the Minister has asked Tusla to commission independent research immediately into Tusla's current practice where children come into care following an emergency intervention by An Garda Síochána". I presume that is a reference to section 13. I am not asking that I be asked to undertake this piece of work but there is real value in me continuing, having spent some time on it until now. I do not know if this is an attempt to say that somebody other than myself will be asked to undertake this research. All I can say publicly is that I have given a lot of thought to how this could be undertaken. I am not suggesting that it should be me but I am saying that from a State perspective there are benefits to having spent two years and thousands of hours on framing the first part of this proposal. The committee may know that I have made some professional sacrifices to continue this work. I am passionately committed to it. I share Deputy Rabbitte's view that this needs to be done as soon as possible. I am anxious to be honest with this committee.

When it came to the repeated removals, I was able to track them on the PULSE system and track whether or not the same child was subject to a section 12 within a relatively short period of time. Question marks will, of course, arise. It comes back to the Deputy's question, however, which was quite an important observation. When attempting to look at this one is faced with a difficulty around the in camera rule. If the child has been subject to care proceedings, one could run into this kind of difficulty in the next stage of the audit. Ministerial direction would give the Minister much greater power. Even if this required a legislative amendment, I think that this is a hugely important piece of work and one worth pursuing. We need to have the full picture.

Hand on heart, I cannot give the committee an honest answer to the question of repeated removals. What I can say, however, is that there was more than one episode of repeated removals under section 12 from the same family circumstances. I cannot give an answer as to whether or not that was appropriate. That answer lies in the comprehensive examination of a large number of cases to see how many were subject to repeated removals and whether or not they were justified. That is important.

The Deputy is also right about the data protection issues. This day next week I will appear before the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality to discuss the general data protection regulation. I am happy to share my presentation for that meeting with this committee if it is of assistance. There are important data protection issues. I have long argued that both the in camera rule and data protection are there to protect citizens, not the system. If they are used as a defence mechanism, then the Legislature needs to address this. Data protection emerged as a central problem again and again through the course of the audit. I have indicated in meetings with the Department of Children and Youth Affairs that if there is a legislative difficulty and a perception of a legislative difficulty from the perspective of either the Department of Children and Youth Affairs or the Department of Justice and Equality in the context of An Garda Síochána, then there is an obligation on the Legislature to legislate. In no other jurisdiction that I have reviewed were data protection issues perceived as a barrier to child protection. It would be a real tragedy if we were to use data protection as a barrier to protecting our children. That would be lamentable.

I warmly welcome Deputy Rabbitte's comments about alcohol. What she suggests would be very helpful. The issue raised this morning about cross-departmental response and a whole-of-government approach is hugely important. Alcohol is such a fundamental issue and I think the Deputy's suggestion is a very good one.