Dr. Geoffrey Shannon:

It would be helpful if I could answer Deputy O'Sullivan's discrete questions. I will start off with the Signs of Safety framework. I welcome the development but it needs to be monitored. It is the primary responsibility of the State to ensure that children are properly protected. That cannot be delegated to any third party. We need a conversation around the benefits of Signs of Safety, and there are undoubted benefits, but also the downsides of this approach. It is a core part of the Tusla vision and therefore needs to be comprehensively examined. It is beyond this discussion but the issue is a particularly important one because it will have a profound impact on how children are protected within this jurisdiction. It needs a much broader discussion.

In respect of inter-agency co-operation, I support the ISPCC approach. Sometimes I think that there is a misunderstanding on the issue of inter-agency co-operation. I have read the transcript from last week's meeting. If I may, I will reference a number of the issues raised. They include a national call centre where social workers consult with and provide advice to An Garda Síochána. I do not see that as a robust, national, out of hours service. It is a stop gap and I acknowledge the fact that in November 2015 it was a significant step forward and that there were the beginnings of an out of hours service. However, and I must say this publicly, if we are referencing Dublin, Kildare, Wicklow and Cork city as areas where there is a "full social work service", I come back to the point I raised earlier about those children who happen to have a need. I refer the committee again for further consideration to page 50 of my report. If we look at the areas outside of those discrete towns and cities, we will see that there is a need.

I would argue that even if only a small number of children require a service, why should those children not receive a service? I would also argue that the children most in need of a service are the children who seek to access State services after 5 o'clock in the evening or over a weekend. Sometimes those are the children with challenging emotional behavioural problems and, arguably, they need an enhanced social work service because of the difficulties presented.

To come back to the audit, it unambiguously found poor inter-agency co-operation. Even if that was the perception among rank and file members of An Garda Síochána, it is problematic. If one agency believes there is a mystification and a lack of understanding of the way Tusla operates, it is a real challenge for the child protection system in terms of members of An Garda Síochána exercising their powers but not understanding what is happening next.

If I could share with the committee what I wanted to do, I had provided Tusla with a robust proposal to delve deeper into the Tusla involvement. What is needed, and I see a reference to it in the Minister's statement this morning, is to look at what happens next. Deputy Ó Laoghaire referenced some public comments around this broader audit of the system. We need to get a 360 degree picture as to how the system operates.

I share Deputy O'Sullivan's views on all the issues she raised. I am conscious of her long track record in this area, but the key issue for me is around implementation in a meaningful manner, not a document. It is how those actions are implemented and that there will be a timeline in respect of the implementation of those actions. That is what I will be suggesting. I hope that answers Deputy O'Sullivan's questions.