Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour) | Oireachtas source

First, I apologise because I have to go at 10 a.m. I am on the eighth amendment committee which is having a short meeting at 10 a.m. after which I will be back. I thank Mr. McBride for his presentation. I have read carefully through the documentation he provided to the committee in advance of the meeting. While we can all acknowledge that children are safer, if one looks at the broad numbers for the last couple of years, and while we understand the pressure Tusla is under, I have some concerns. I accept there is always risk in these situations but I must express some concerns and ask questions on the presentation. We have all noted in the committee the importance of recruiting social workers and the fact that while targets were set, they have not been reached. In particular, the ISPCC has expressed concern about the out-of-hours service and the limited availability of support for the Garda when they have to intervene. The ISPCC has referred to the need for a comprehensive out-of-hours service in which social workers are available. Tusla has told us that there are difficulties recruiting people, which we understand. Even though Tusla says and we agree that children are safer now, we need to ensure that they are as safe as possible and that we have the best possible service. That is what the committee wants to achieve.

The Signs of Safety programme was discussed by Mr. McBride. Over 70% of section 12 interventions by the Garda were repeat interventions. It was the same families and children as I understand it from the programme. There are some 680 interventions per annum by the Garda under section 12. It happens frequently. Can Mr. McBride explain the relationship between An Garda Síochána and Tusla in respect of children at risk? I understand that more than 50% do not get screened out at an early stage. The ones that really concern me are those where children are genuinely at serious risk, which is why I want to ask about the Signs of Safety procedure. Mr. McBride said it would be introduced in quarter 4, but I understand it is already in use in some cases. Is the Signs of Safety programme already in use in some cases and, if so, have social workers and other professionals like gardaí, public health nurses and teachers been trained in respect of it?

I am concerned about language like "risk sophisticated practice" and the agency having a "risk appetite". There are some children and situations where it is extremely risky for them to return to or stay in their families. Mr. McBride should give the committee an assurance that the Signs of Safety procedure will not be used according to this sophisticated language such that children are left with or returned to families where they are at risk and the information gardaí and others have suggests they are at risk. Is there an escalation or appeals procedure available to the Garda where there are serious concerns about case management and has Tusla received any escalation of complaints about cases in respect of which the Signs of Safety system is in use? If so, how has it dealt with them?

I am pursuing this in detail because I have done some research. "Panorama", the UK series, did a programme on the Baby P case and Signs of Safety was part of the management of that case. That child died. This is coming in and is implemented in some cases so my questions are specifically around the particular methodology. While I can understand its use in low-risk situations, I would be very concerned if it were used in high-risk situations. Can Mr. McBride answer the specific questions around that?